Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/4/Archive 77

Archive 70

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Archive 75

Archive 76

Archive 77

Add Credit  5 and Cash  5

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Another “doh!” facepalm, folks. How many more times will we have cases like this? Vileplume (talk) 01:59, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume (talk) 01:59, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Support credit. The Blue Rider 14:28, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Support cash, given debit is enough probably for credit (might consider a swap however?). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:42, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose credit as redundant to Debt  4, Credit card  4 and Loan  4 at this level (all introduced at VA4). Also overlaps with Mortgage  4. May support a swap with credit card. Gizza (talk) 03:54, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

   Credit is the counterpart of debt, makes no sense to list one and not the other. The Blue Rider 14:28, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

2. Oppose --Thi (talk) 11:47, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
3. As the editor who nominated these two at V5, there is a reason why I did not nominate them here. feminist🩸 (talk) 14:30, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

   And what's the reason? Credit is how most small to medium companies and families get capital from. The Blue Rider 23:03, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

   @The Blue Rider And cash is a basic everyday concept for centuries. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:44, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

   Cash as a concept represents money in the physical form, as distinct from an intangible form. Coin  4 and Banknote  4 (paper money) existed before the concept of "cash" is devised, because cash only became a distinct concept when non-physical money began. Therefore, the concept of physical money should be less important than the two primary forms of physical money.

   Credit is a subtopic of debt; creditors only care about the creditworthiness of a person if they want to create debt. The capital that small businesses and families get is debt; they care about the amount, interest rate and payment terms of the debt, and this is affected by their credit, but also by the business decisions of the creditor. feminist🩸 (talk) 16:02, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

   Credit is the opposite of debt so one can't be a subtopic of the other, if anything debt is a subtopic of credit since the former can only occur when the latter happens. Eitherway, even though banks care about the debt, businesses and families care about the credit. Both equally important, it would be non-sense if credit doesn't pass. The Blue Rider 17:06, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

   One can absolutely have debt without credit. If someone causes you loss, they are indebted to you to the extent of their liability, without you providing any credit to that person. feminist🩸 (talk) 05:41, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

I was neutral on cash but with Currency  4, Banknote  4 and Coin  4 (the two main modern forms of cash) all listed already, it weakens the case to also include cash. Gizza (talk) 05:49, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Bocce  5

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A regionally popular sport related to bowling that's, frankly, not all that popular. We have 4 bowling-related articles at his level, comprising almost 1% of the Everyday Life section. 11 interwikis.

Support

1. As nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:58, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
2. I'm not even convinced that this should be V5. feminist🩸 (talk) 05:36, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 12:36, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 01:33, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Definitely at least VA5 worthy but not VA4. Aurangzebra (talk) 01:58, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
6. Possibly VA5 level but not VA4 Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 22:39, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
7. 690 dailies. Should be V5, but not V4. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:32, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
8. This obscure sport belongs at VA5. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:30, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
9. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:47, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove History of England  4 and History of Scotland  4

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We should not list the history of country subdivisions at V4. History of the United Kingdom  4 is enough. Vileplume (talk) 23:02, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume (talk) 23:02, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Both England and Scotland are countries in the same way as the Netherlands  3 is a country, and both had been sovereign states for a very long time. The English Wikipedia attracts an English-speaking readership who would tend to be more interested in English-speaking places than non-English-speaking places, all else being equal. feminist🩸 (talk) 05:47, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
2. It's not the current nation-state status of these entities, it's their histories. Admittedly the histories of England and Scotland are intertwined, but the vital aspect of each warrants Level/4. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk)

   Further to this, History of England  4 at least is on a par with Macedonia (ancient kingdom)  4. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 07:59, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

3. Oppose --Thi (talk) 09:04, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Add University of the Chinese Academy of Sciences

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Although it is not yet at Level/5, addition of this should be obvious. See: https://www.nature.com/nature-index/annual-tables/2023/institution/academic/all/global (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 08:17, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 08:17, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Definitely not the first university I would add. Too recent (only established in 2012). Either of University of Hong Kong  5, Fudan University  5, Seoul National University  5, or National University of Singapore  5 would be more established and a better addition among universities in Asia. feminist🩸 (talk) 10:57, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

   For that matter, I think Chinese Academy of Sciences would be a better addition to V5 than the university. feminist🩸 (talk) 02:23, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

2. Per feminist. Vileplume (talk) 16:34, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Per above. --Thi (talk) 19:46, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Swap: add Tower Bridge  4, remove London Bridge  5

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One is a recognisable London landmark, the other is a run-off-the-mill box girder bridge.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 07:17, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:35, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 20:11, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Yes, the name 'London Bridge' might be more recognized in the English speaking world, but 'Tower Bridge' is more vital. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 22:09, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
5. A globally known London landmark. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 01:28, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
6. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 23:37, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
7. --LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 09:23, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
8. It looks like London Bridge is falling down to level 5.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:48, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Human Geography and Physical Geography

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Currently these two pages are in Level 5. Both are high level methods for subdividing the discipline, and many of their subfields are significantly higher levels. Discussed on Level 3 and was suggested to bring it here. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 16:43, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 06:13, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support physical geography. Human geography is somewhat recent and not widely studied per my view; I won't necessarily oppose though. The Blue Rider 17:47, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Vileplume (talk) 22:21, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Support human geography per nom; neutral on physical geography. The latter is much more represented on the list than the former IMO. Not only with all the landforms we list, but also Geomorphology  4, Hydrology  4, Climatology  4, Oceanography  4: its listing looks fairly redundant with Earth science  3 and its subtopics. (Not sufficiently cognizant of this part of the list to oppose though.) Human geography, however, definitely is a major academic disclipline in its own right. J947 ‡ ^edits 02:31, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 02:43, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
6. --RekishiEJ (talk) 05:39, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

1. Comment: @User:The Blue Rider, just to clarify human geography is an umbrella term that looks at the spatial distribution of all human activities on the planet. This includes urban geography, health geography, economic geography, population geography, political geography, historical geography, military geography, etc. It is widely used in the United States to subdivide the discipline. A quick Google scholar search shows many hits, and one book from 1926 titled Principles of Human Geography does discuss it as a "new" term, however the concepts in the book go back millennia. I can provide citations if requested, but generally, the three branch model of human, physical, and technical (often with another name like "spatial") is the most common. Just wanted to clarify. I'm grateful for the challenge, as this question of human geography's legitimacy sent me down a research rabbit hole. As a geographer, human geography tends to be one of the rocks we never question and has been the dominant paradigm in academic geography in the past 50 years or so.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:08, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Comment: @User:J947, just to clarify, physical geography and earth science have significant overlap but do have some distinctions. First, "Earth science" is listed as one of the Four traditions of geography, which are one method to understand the organization of the discipline. Geography requires a spatial component and does not always employ the scientific method. Earth science can have a spatial component and does require the use of the scientific method (as per the name). Geography predated Earth science by at least a millennium as a term. One difference I like to use as an example is the difference between geology and geography. A geologist can use a microscope to look at crystals under a microscope and never get their boots dirty or look at a map, while geographers fundamentally require a "study area" if applied, and theory is related to the spatial phenomenon. Physical geography was the leading paradigm in the discipline until the mid 20th century, when human geography became more of a focus. Generally, geomorphology, climatology, etc. are viewed as partial sub-branches of physical geography, and in textbooks Physical geography would be placed above them in a hierarchy. I can get sources if needed.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:52, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

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Swap Sample mean and covariance  5 with Covariance  4

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Mean  4 is level 4 vitality, no need to list its sample form at such high level. Covariance on the other hand is widely used to measure the relationship between two variables. The Blue Rider 18:23, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. The Blue Rider 18:23, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. Gizza (talk) 01:23, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Support per nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:39, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 13:25, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
5. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
6. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:54, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• On a second thought, covariance might be too similar to Correlation  4. The Blue Rider 18:45, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

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Swap: Remove Eunuch  4, add Castration  5

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The process should be more important than the men who result from it.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 01:40, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Female genital mutilation  4 is listed and Eunuchs had a big historical importance in Imperial China and in the Middle East; eunuchs often held positions of power. The Blue Rider 16:00, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Per The Blue Rider. — 🔥Jalapeño🔥 Stupid stuff I did 12:25, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 19:47, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Reddit

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A website that is in the top 10 most visited websites in the world. It has an influence on the internet that is significant for this level. Interstellarity (talk) 21:52, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 21:52, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Not on the same level as Google  4. The Blue Rider 17:05, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose Only a recent phenomenon. --Thi (talk) 13:11, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Not on the level of Facebook  4 or YouTube  4 yet. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:22, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Not as vital as stuff like Twitter  5 and Instagram  5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:44, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Oppose Per Thi.
6. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:55, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

1. Comment I think this is a great opportunity to take Facebook and Youtube down a notch to level 5 as well. They are all relatively recent phenomena. Clear up some space in Level 4.

   Wikipedia should be removed first. Feels like WP:NAVEL to me. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:48, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

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Add Chromebook

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Chromebooks are the only major operating system that we don't list. We list Windows, Mac, and Linux, but not this one. Interstellarity (talk) 13:09, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 13:09, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. least important. VA5 is OK.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:55, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose --Thi (talk) 15:50, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
3. I am writing this on a Chromebook. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 18:00, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
4. per everyone else Aurangzebra (talk) 06:37, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

@TonyTheTiger, Thi, OhnoitsvileplumeXD, and Aurangzebra: How are Chromebooks the least important compared to other operating systems? Interstellarity (talk) 10:56, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Probably one of the biggest tells is that software providers typically don't write applications for ChromeOS whereas they do for Mac, Windows, and Linux. My guess is that the only reason why Chromebook's market share is as high as it is is because it's ubiquitous in schools due to its limited, straightforward platform. It's not really an OS people take too seriously. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:31, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I am not a tech guy. That was my raw interpretation of the market. Things like what Aurangzebra pointed to regarding software point me to that belief. I don't know what the overall usage is, but my recollection of traffic reports on a website were that chromeOS site traffic was lower than the others.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:38, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

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Add Rhine-Ruhr metropolitan region

Per @Aszx5000 recent note in the level 3 discussion. The Rhine-Ruhr region stands as one of the pivotal centers in Europe. Germany has only one other region at level 4, despite being the most influential country in Europe and the most populous in the EU. Respublik (talk) 14:39, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. Respublik (talk) 14:39, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I’d add North Rhine-Westphalia first, since states are more vital than metro regions, and since no other metro regions are V5. I’d also promote Berlin to V3 first. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 14:52, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

1. Support for an alternative addition of North Rhine-Westphalia (reasonable for me). I guess it's a matter of which association is more of a priority between a more formal/historical or a more urbanistic one. I could also argue that just the Rhine-Ruhr's setup at 2/3 of the state's GDP (and at European context) has a better likeness at the XXI century to the historical importance of Rhineland, but then again it's a part of it. Respublik (talk) 15:39, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

I'm skeptical if there exist a spot in the current quota to add Berlin at V3. It would require more places for cities. Respublik (talk) 15:39, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

The Meta list has 45 cities, so I’d probably redistribute some articles and/or increase quota by ~40% for all levels to reflect the growing size of the encyclopedia. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 22:42, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Swap: Eisaku Satō  4 for Nobusuke Kishi  5

Eisaku Satō was certainly an important politician for his time, as one of the longer-serving Japanese prime ministers and the signatory of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, but I'm not sure what distinguishes him so much that he is listed alongside Meiji, Hirohito, Tojo and Abe. On the other hand, his brother Nobusuke Kishi is vital to understanding modern Japanese politics: he ruled Manchukuo, for which he was nicknamed the "Monster of the Shōwa era"; he was a high-level member of the civil-military dictatorship, even helping to bring down Tojo's government; he was considered a class-A war criminal, but never tried by the United States, as they considered him the best man to rule Japan after the war; he founded the Liberal Democratic Party, which has governed Japan as its dominant party since the 1950s; he helped establish the Asian Development Bank; he played a central role in the post-war rehabilitation of convicted war criminals; he was the focus of mass protests against his rule in 1960; he was a key influence on Korean dictator Park Chung-hee; and he helped bring the Unification Church into the government. Kishi has had an undeniably enduring effect on Japanese (and East Asian) politics up until this very day, and I think he is certainly vital enough for level 4. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:21, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Support as nominator. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:21, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Occupational therapy

We are currently under quota for Biology and health sciences, and occupational therapy feels just as important as a health care profession as Physical therapy  4 and Radiation therapy  4, both of which are at V4.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 13:16, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Polish literature or swap with Jewish literature or Ancient Egyptian literature

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Polish literature compared with Jewish has 2x interwiki links, equal page views, and equal number of Nobel prize lauratates (3 each, one of who, Singer, is Polish-Jewish). IMHO comparable to for example Spanish literature or such we list. Another swap to consider would be Ancient Egyptian literature which is of historical significance only and unlike Ancient Greek, Roman or Chinese diud not produce any enduing classics (side note here: we list Ancient Greek literature; sadly, neither Ancient Roman literature nor Ancient Roman literature nor Ancient Chinese literature have articles - the latter is just a redirect; to what degree with this overlaps with Chinese classics (V5) I am not sure ATM). Chinese classics may merit V4 discussion too. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:15, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:15, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
2. I certainly support adding Polish literature which is the oldest continuesly existing Slavic literatures, and arguably one of the two most important. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marcelus (talk • contribs)
3. Support --Thi (talk) 12:57, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose. Not sure that the swapping of Jewish or Egyptian literature is correct (both are historically important and of foundation in all literature). I would need to see a stronger case as to why Polish literature (as a standalone nom) is important in a world context? Aszx5000 (talk) 20:53, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Oppose removals. Polish literature is potentially level 4 vital with figures such as Czesław Miłosz  5 but Jewish and Ancient Egypt literature are even more important. The Blue Rider 20:44, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
3. We list very few country literature articles and the countries we do list have been much more influential in literature than Poland has (France, Japan, Russia etc.). I'd much rather see American literature or British literature added first, both of whom have more than 2 times as many monthly pageviews (we already list English literature  3 but it is VA3). Aurangzebra (talk) 05:07, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per Aszx5000 and Aurangzebra. starship.paint (RUN) 01:07, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Add the remaining actinides

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The articles in question are:

• Einsteinium  5
• Fermium  5
• Mendelevium  5
• Nobelium  5
• Lawrencium  5

It doesn’t make sense to me why the highest element we list is californium. I think this discussion is a good indicator of the vitality of elements with super high atomic numbers. I would be open to removing some elements starting from americium since the first ninety four elements are naturally occurring. Interstellarity (talk) 18:53, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 18:53, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Personally I'd rather remove some, if any change should be made. J947 ‡ ^edits 03:10, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per Marchantiophyta. feminist🩸 (talk) 14:08, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

Synthetic element  4 is listed; note past discussions here and here. J947 ‡ ^edits 03:10, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

For what it's worth, Californium is the heaviest element with real-world applications so it's a reasonable place to stop. A case could maybe be made for Einsteinium as the heaviest element produced in visible quantities, but the remaining actinides are just too immaterial (figuratively and literally) to be "important". --Marchantiophyta (talk) 00:31, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

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Remove History of Iraq  4

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Iraq  4 is only VA4, and History of the Middle East  3 covers it decently well, plus there are a lot of other Middle East countries with their histories at VA4. I think that the history of a VA4 country should be at VA5.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:55, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Per below. Vileplume (talk) 20:39, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

1. It's a special case due to the importance in history of Mesopotamia, which is today Iraq. (sdsds - talk) 23:17, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

   Then swap this for History of Mesopotamia. QuicoleJR (talk) 00:49, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

   Which is not even V5. Vileplume (talk) 01:28, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Brassica oleracea  5

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This single species has given rise to Kale  4, Cabbage  4, Broccoli  4, Kohlrabi  4, Collard (plant)  4, Gai lan  5, Savoy cabbage  5, and Brussels sprout  5 as long as less vital varieties which makes me think this should be VA4.

Support

1. as nom 115.188.119.62 (talk) 19:03, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. move Brassicaceae  4 instead, to include mustard, etc. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 21:35, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

I have a related proposal to promote Brassicaceae to V4 by replacing a more obscure family. While B. oleracea is arguably the most important member, there are plenty of other important & vital species (Notably Horseradish  4, Arabidopsis thaliana  4, Radish  4, Rapeseed  4, Rutabaga, Eruca vesicaria  4, and Turnip  4) in the family, so I think it's a stronger candidate. -- Marchantiophyta (talk) 23:35, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

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Add Katowice  5

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Primary city of one of the largest agglomerations in the European Union. Vileplume (talk) 01:14, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume (talk) 01:14, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

1. Disclaimer: it is my hometown and I'd like to support :) But I am also not convinced this is a V4 city, and I think vital lists have too many geographical locations... sigh. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:33, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Add History of South Korea  5

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The largest country by GDP (#13 in the world) for which we do not list its history at V4. For reference, the next largest which we don't list is Switzerland (#20), which has a low population.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 06:05, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
2. South Korea  3 being level 3 (for good reasons), the strong links between South Korea and the English Wikipedia readership and the strong effects aspects of the history of South Korea have had on geo-politics all provide motivation for this. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 07:43, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Per vileplume, South Korea is a recent state; the Korean Peninsula has been unified for most of its history. The Blue Rider 17:23, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

• Is this redundant to History of Korea  4? Vileplume (talk) 16:39, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

  It's no more redundant to History of Korea than History of the People's Republic of China  4 is redundant to History of China  4 or History of India (1947–present)  4 is to History of India  3. The Republic of Korea was founded in 1948, which is between the founding of India (1947) and China (1949). feminist🩸 (talk) 02:20, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

  I see History of India as more of an article for the history of the Indian subcontinent. The article also has little information about the region post-independence. Vileplume (talk) 02:26, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

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Add Myanmar conflict  5

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It is the longest military conflict in the world, and its effects are felt in Southeast Asia.

Support

1. As nom --Hoben7599 (talk) 09:41, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Wikipedia

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Not doing this to offend our community, but Wikipedia isn't that important compared to Twitter or Instagram which are both not listed. Considering that Wikimedia Foundation failed at level 5, it would make the most sense to demote this article to level 5. Interstellarity (talk) 12:13, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 12:13, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Obviously, it is not easy to talk about this neutrally but I do think Wikipedia is VA4-worthy. Sure, Instagram and Twitter may be used more but not by much. But I don't think Wikipedia is just listed here because it's a well-known and frequently-visited website. It's also a technical feat. It's the first time in history we have been able to create a fairly accurate, fairly complete repository of the world's knowledge. I think this novelty makes it VA4-worthy and will ensure it stands the test of time as opposed to Twitter or Instagram. Aurangzebra (talk) 05:45, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Much influence in modern information dissemination. Has all but supplanted traditional encyclopedias like the Encyclopædia Britannica  4.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 08:34, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
3. It's ok at this leval. --Thi (talk) 21:53, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Weak oppose, although I would weakly support the addition of Twitter, which was swapped with Text messaging  4 in early 2015. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 16:09, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

1. I agree that Wikipedia is not that far removed from Twitter, but Laukku does present a good point, in that Britannica is also VA4 so it makes sense for Wikipedia to be also listed as the same level. I'm not convinced on Instagram, but I do think Twitter may be worth adding due to its influence on dissemination of news, informaion, and on discourse, if we keep Wikipedia here. Iostn (talk) 21:36, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Add Stretching  5 to Health and fitness

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Form of physical exercise done by humans and other animals.

Support

1. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:42, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Diyarbakır

Diyarbakır is the largest Kurdish-majority city in Turkey and a focal point for ethnic conflict.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 13:17, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
2. This or add Konya; see #Remove Eskişehir. J947 ‡ ^edits 03:37, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

There are larger Kurdish-plurality cities, such as Kirkuk. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 15:46, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

I think Diyarbakır's larger than Kirkuk. J947 ‡ ^edits 03:37, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Swap: Remove Melastomataceae  5, add Brassicaceae  4

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The Brassicaceae are a POWERHOUSE of a family, containing Arabidopsis thaliana  4, Bok choy  5, Bomdong  5, Broccoli  4, Brussels sprout  5, Cabbage  4, Cauliflower  4, Chinese cabbage  4, Choy sum  5, Collard (plant)  4, Daikon  4, Eruca vesicaria  4, Gai lan  5, Garden cress  5, Horseradish  4, Kale  4, Kohlrabi  4, Mustard plant  5, Radish  4, Rapeseed  4, Rapini  5, Rutabaga, Savoy cabbage  5, Turnip  4, Wasabi  5, and Watercress  5 (and hosting Pieris brassicae  4). Members of the family are found almost everywhere on earth and fill a wide variety of niches.

The Melastomataceae are one of the larger plant families, notable for being… not all that notable? They're common in the tropics, diverse in form, contain a number of ornamental plants, and see some use in traditional medicine – but these are all true of many other plant families not at level 4. The lack of culturally/economically/culinarily significant members is surprising given the size of the group, and size alone is not a good measure of vitality (arguments for including the nth largest family are generally applicable to the n+1th largest, and the n+2th largest, and so on).

Support

1. As nominator --Marchantiophyta (talk) 01:09, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:25, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 09:13, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support --Thi (talk) 19:36, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Support Lorax (talk) 02:20, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Just to clarify, my proposal is to demote Melastomataceae to level 5 and promote Brassicaceae to level 4. -- Marchantiophyta (talk) 02:16, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

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Add Shopping  4

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A daily activity for people in capitalist societies (read: most of the world).

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🚰 (talk) 16:13, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
2. The inverse concept Sales  4 is already level 4. Even if there were an article covering both sides of purchase transactions, that wouldn't address the browsing that separates shopping from purchasing. (Browsing is currently rated Start-class.) (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 21:18, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
3. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:23, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
4. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 01:31, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Support shopping has been around for a long time and a significant fraction of the world population does it. Lorax (talk) 02:25, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Erbil  4

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Capital and largest city of the Kurdistan Region, an ethnically and culturally distinct part of Iraq. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:26, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:26, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Seems important enough, capital of an important region and dates back to the 5th millennium BC. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:40, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nominator. The Blue Rider 18:01, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
4. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 18:14, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Support per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 13:58, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I think V4 should have cities that people actually are likely to hear about on the global level. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:41, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

   Most people are ignorant so well-knownness is not a good metric. The Blue Rider 18:01, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

   I would agree. Most Americans probably couldn't name two cities in Poland, but we have six cities in Poland on the VA4 list. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:01, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

   I actually reckon most Americans wouldn't be able to name one Polish city, for what it's worth. J947 ‡ ^edits 21:01, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

   Maybe I should say "most reasonably well educated people, interested in global history and events"? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:49, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

   I think it comes up fairly frequently in those circles to be honest. Due to war, I guess, but seems an odd reason to oppose. J947 ‡ ^edits 03:22, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Iraq's size justifies listing a 4th city in addition to Baghdad, Mosul, and Basra, and Erbil stood out to me too as an omission when I checked over the list recently (certainly a notable city on a global scale). I've got a couple of qualms though. Firstly, it's not that big with a population of less than a million; Kirkuk is Iraq's 4th biggest city instead. Secondly, and more importantly, Erbil is right next door to Mosul, just 75 km between them. I'll probably support, but these are factors worth dwelling on. J947 ‡ ^edits 21:12, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Hmm I just noticed that we don't have Diyarbakır (another Kurdish-majority city) at V4, and it's a larger city than Erbil. I'll propose adding that. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 13:00, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

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Add Talaat Pasha  4

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This politician no doubt should be added, since he was the de facto supreme leader of the Ottoman Empire after 1914 (another man of the Three Pashas, Enver Pasha, is currently listed), and the main perpetrator of the Armenian Genocide (which is currently listed), besides, he is considered the de-facto builder of Modern Turkey by Hans-Lukas Kieser.

Support

1. As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 03:08, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Also worth noting that the trial of his assassin directly inspired Rafael Lemkin's development of his ideas on prosecuting genocide. Talaat's biography is absolutely vital at this level. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:36, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:32, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 09:14, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:00, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add various health science subjects (part 2)

Above a group of medical subjects was nominated as a batch because they had unanimously passed at Level 5 and it seems some of them are on their way to passing here. So here is another batch of unanimous level 5 passes. Since these took longer to achieve unanimous level 5 pass that may or may not indicate they are less vital. However, let's discuss the following.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Search and rescue

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Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD), 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• If the nominator presents a rationale for the inclusion I might support it. The Blue Rider 17:39, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

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Dressing (medicine)

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Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD), 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. If I'm not mistaken a compress is a type of bandage, if so, oppose on the basis that it is too specific. The Blue Rider 17:34, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Personal protective equipment  4

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Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD), 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support a broad category with wide relevance Lorax (talk) 06:12, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Support per above. starship.paint (RUN) 03:44, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:10, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:00, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Adhesive bandage

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Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD), 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Widely used but redudant to the broader article Bandage  4. The Blue Rider 17:27, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Boot (medicine)

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• This is the stubbiest vital article I have seen, but hopefully its new VA-status will draw attention of knowledgeable editors.

Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD), 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. In no universe this is level 4 vitality. The Blue Rider 17:23, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Retainer (orthodontics)

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Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD), 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. A lot of these are commonly used, but to be sincere, equipments are normally too specific to level 4 vitality. Search and rescue, pulmonology, first aid are all better candidates. The Blue Rider 17:33, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose agree with the Blue Rider. Gizza (talk) 23:50, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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First responder

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Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD), 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Swap: Remove Guangxi  5, add Zhejiang  4

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Zhejiang has a higher population and much larger economy than Guangxi.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 16:31, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom (for those interested, I think we list one city in each of these Chinese provinces). J947 ‡ ^edits 03:12, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

   We don't list Haikou  5, Hohhot  5, Xining  5 and Yinchuan  5, not that I necessarily think we should. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 13:13, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

3. makes sense Aurangzebra (talk) 06:07, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:10, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:01, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
6. I assume Guangxi is listed due to its status as an autonomous region and the homeland of the Zhuang people  5. Zhejiang also has more cities at V4 (Hangzhou  4 and Ningbo  4 versus just Nanning  4) and V5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 14:24, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Mixed

Discuss

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Move Aung San Suu Kyi  4 to politicians and leaders

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While she was once most notable as an incarcerated opposition leader (which she has become again funnily enough), I'd argue she is now more well-known as the first non-military head of government of Myanmar in decades (not to mention her position as a human rights darling being overshadowed by her actions in power). her father, Aung San  4, never got to lead Burma as an independent country before he was assassinated so I think he still listed there but, Suu Kyi, no.

Support

1. Iostn (talk) 22:19, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Agreed feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 04:49, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:11, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Her fame and vitality come from her past human rights track record and her Nobel Peace Prize. She didn't particularly do anything VA4-worthy in politics, especially considering how she only ended up being mildly better than her predecessors when it came to defending human and civil rights, and the fact that her political tenure was quickly squashed in the 2021 coup. As an example, If it came out tomorrow that Mother Teresa  4 had been running a drug smuggling ring since she was 20, we wouldn't move her to Criminals even though that would be what people would associate her with going forward. Her VA4-worthiness came from her charity work and activism. Aurangzebra (talk) 06:05, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

   The categorization has actually been an issue already on V5 where several African (mostly anti-colonial) leaders were listed under revolutionaries and activists, and there was recently a vote in favour of moving them from there to politicians, so this is consistent with that. Even ignoring her term as State Councillor, she can still be considered a politician as leader of the NLD. Iostn (talk) 20:46, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

2. Oppose. Per Aurangzebra, she is not VA4 level as a politician. Aszx5000 (talk) 19:36, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
3. per Aurangzebra. starship.paint (RUN) 14:22, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Add History of Argentina  4

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Argentina  3 is VA3, and it has been quite important to the History of South America  3. Arguably more important than History of Peru  4 since Peru  4 is only VA4, but the Inca Empire  3 lets that article make it through, although an argument could be made for a swap with History of the Incas  5, which is not even listed at VA5.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:27, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Vileplume (talk) 20:38, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
3. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:22, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support --Thi (talk) 19:35, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 20:15, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
6. Yes. Interstellarity (talk) 22:49, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Ethiopian Empire  4

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A sovereign state whose existence stretched from the Crusades to the Cold War. Its kingdom was based on a blend of indigenous traditions, an ancient form of Christianity, and governance by the Solomonic Dynasty, which through the centuries included leaders such as Amda Seyon I  4, Zara Yaqob  4, Tewodros II  4, Yohannes IV  4, Menelik II  4 and Haile Selassie  4. A cornerstone for African history. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:09, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:09, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. The Blue Rider 13:37, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:11, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Not V3, but certainly V4 material. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:12, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:06, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Cross-country skiing  5

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We have 5 skiing articles at his level, and this does not seem specific enough. Only a modest fraction of the world's population has access to snow-covered landscapes. 6 interwikis.

Support

1. As nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:58, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Over 1% of the Everyday Life quota? No, this kind of stuff is not vital at V4. Vileplume (talk) 22:25, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 01:45, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:12, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:14, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Swap Diplomatics  5 with History of spaceflight  4

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Diplomatics  5 (in Auxiliary historical sciences) is somewhat obscure. History of spaceflight  4 (in History of transport) is of considerable interest in the 20th and 21st century. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 05:16, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 05:16, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support --Thi (talk) 09:05, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:43, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 01:32, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:15, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Diplomatics is vital in historiography, yet history of spaceflight is a mere sub-article.--RekishiEJ (talk) 05:31, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discuss

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Add Authoritarianism  4

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Surprised this is not listed. We list Totalitarianism, but not this article since this is the opposite of Democracy. Interstellarity (talk) 00:40, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 00:40, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support --Thi (talk) 13:21, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
3. --RekishiEJ (talk) 11:19, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:13, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:18, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Add Personal computer  4 and maybe Mobile device  4

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This is the most common computer in our daily lives. I am conisdering adding Mobile device  4 since it covers things like tablets. Personal computer covers things like Laptop  5 and Desktop computer  5. Interstellarity (talk) 12:38, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 12:38, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support pc, oppose md. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:20, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Add both.--RekishiEJ (talk) 12:50, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Both-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:53, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:53, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
6. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:19, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

• Note, mobile device is one support vote away from passing at the time of this comment. starship.paint (RUN) 08:18, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

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Add Friedrich List  4

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Because he influenced Sergei Witte, the Young Turks (cf. Confiscation and Destruction: The Young Turk Seizure of Armenian Property), Deng Xiaoping's post-Mao policies and recent policies in India, he was no doubt a vital economic nationalist.

Support

1. As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 12:50, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
2. His ideas were extremely influential in the developmental and industrial policies of Germany, South Korea, and Japan as well. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:50, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
3. The father of the Historical school of economics. The Blue Rider 14:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:14, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:20, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Weak oppose. Not that many economists are listed, and were one to be added I'd prefer Joseph Schumpeter. J947 ‡ ^edits 05:47, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Twitter  5

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There seems to be some support for this addition, and it makes sense since it is one of the most popular social media platforms alongside Facebook  4 and Instagram  5. Interstellarity (talk) 12:54, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 12:54, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Weakly. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:52, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Silly omission at present. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:53, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Easily as penetrated as Facebook  4. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:23, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose Just another platform in systematic decline. --Thi (talk) 13:45, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Per above, Elon Musk has changed Twitter and not for the better. starship.paint (RUN) 04:15, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Of isolated importance. J947 ‡ ^edits 05:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

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Move Clara Schumann  4 to pianists

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I know that the classical music scene has historically been very bad at recognizing music composed by non-white men, and there has been a growing number of people performing her music, but I feel like her vitality still heavily stems from her being one of the leading pianists in the Romantic era. Unlike Sergei Rachmaninoff  4, who like her also mostly gave up on composing and spent the rest of his life being a performer, none of her works are listed as vital. Compare that to Leonard Bernstein  4, who despite giving us West Side Story  4 is rightfully listed under conductors.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:54, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Support --Thi (talk) 08:18, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 02:53, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:48, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:27, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Flatbread  5

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VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, and VA4 Everyday life is at 23 articles over quota, so we've got to take action. This is the only specific type of Bread  3 listed at V4 and it is not apparent to me why this is that vital. starship.paint (RUN) 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:15, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 12:42, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:15, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:27, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. A whole bunch of cultures have some sort of flatbread _pbp 17:22, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Per pbp. We have ten specific flatbreads at V5 and we should have the parent article at V4. Bread  3 is V3, so this does not seem very redundant. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 18:35, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Journal des sçavans  5

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VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Society and social sciences is at 27 articles over quota, so we've got to take action. This is the earliest known scientific journal, but a minor one, V5 is appropriate, not V4. Compare to Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society  4, the second earliest known scientific journal. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 12:39, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Support The work doesn't hit me as hugely significant other than being first scientific journal, whatever that is, the author is not hugely known, signifant theories like the speed of light, are already listed separately and are significant in both science and public mind independent of this work.  Carlwev  13:42, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:22, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:32, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
6. Low-hanging fruit. Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society should probably be on the chopping block too. J947 ‡ ^edits 05:51, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Operational level of war  5

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VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Society and social sciences is at 27 articles over quota, so we've got to take action. This is a sparse article that I believe can be covered by Military tactics  4, Military strategy  4, and War  2. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 12:39, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Support agree with nom's comments.  Carlwev  13:44, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:22, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. 14:34, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
6. Support per nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 05:53, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Liqueur  5, NOT Liquor  4

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With a result of 7-4, Liqueur (not Liquor) was the article closest to being removed out of the multi-removal nomination of alcoholic beverages. Two opposers said that it would be better to open separate discussions. So here it is. The article is sparse and I believe this is niche for V4. We have 14 alcoholic drink articles at V4, time to cut it down. We're over quota by 21 articles. starship.paint (RUN) 13:46, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:43, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Support --Thi (talk) 10:01, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:23, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
4. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 01:55, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 19:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
6. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 03:14, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Preadolescence  5

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Covered already by Child  3, Boy  4 and Girl  4. We're over quota in total V4 and V4 Everyday life. starship.paint (RUN) 08:34, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 08:34, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 09:58, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
3. I have never even heard of this term. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:24, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

   You've never even heard the term preteen? Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:14, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

4. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:14, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
5. _pbp 14:40, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
6. Aszx5000 (talk) 13:48, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Alberta  5

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We always try to counter U.S. bias, but rarely Canadian bias. We have one V4 American city for every 12.6m inhabitants, yet one Canadian city for every 7.8m inhabitants. At V5, it’s one US city for every 2.37m inhabitants and one Canadian city for every 1.86m inhabitants. We’ve been removing many contemporary U.S. politicians since late 2023, and now it’s horrendously underrepresented in that area compared to other Anglophone countries. In country subdivisions, we list 8 U.S. states, 4 regions (and I’d consider swapping New England for the Northeast), and Silicon Valley. Then we have four Canadian provinces, and this one is the safest choice for removal. Alberta is far less vital than Ohio  5, Kantō region  5, São Paulo (state)  5, etc imho. How is Krasnodar Krai not even V5? Vileplume (talk) 22:10, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume (talk) 22:10, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Swap with Ohio  5 or remove. feminist🩸 (talk) 01:58, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

   Reasonable swap if we’re only listing one of Ohio’s three major cities - all comparable in population. I’m pretty sure Cincinnati was formerly V4, and a swap between Cleveland and Columbus was proposed relatively recently, but had no support other than nom. Vileplume (talk) 02:10, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

3. Per nom, we are overrepresented here. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:07, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
4. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:30, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Support --Thi (talk) 14:13, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
6. Support swap with Canadian Prairies. Interstellarity (talk) 00:51, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

1. How about a swap with Canadian Prairies? The prairies cover a larger geographic area than all but approximately a dozen countries on earth. They're located in a relatively populous anglophone country and are of vital economic importance due to their abundant natural/agricultural resources. Additionally, they (and Alberta in particular) hold far more electoral sway than Ohio does. IRN-Dumas (talk) 17:35, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   The swap was proposed recently, and the Prairies have a combined population of only 7.4 million, comparable to only Arizona, the fourteenth most populous state. Not more important than many U.S. regions we don't list. Economically, the region's GDP of $537 billion is comparable to 15th placer Tennessee. Ohio, on the other hand, has a population of 11.8 million and a GDP of $881 billion. Vileplume (talk) 18:16, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

@J947: Would you still support a swap with Edmonton today? I would strongly oppose; it’s only comparable to Oklahoma City and Louisville. Vileplume (talk) 01:50, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

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Add Brook Taylor  5

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He was one of the most influential mathematicians of the 18th century, and made significant contributions to the development of Calculus  3. He developed Taylor's theorem  5 (one of the central elementary tools in mathematical analysis) and Taylor series  4 (very important in calculus).

Support

1. As nom. EleniXDD※Talk 09:24, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Add Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact  5

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84 iwikis. A piviotal event in the history of Eastern Europe and one of the causes of WWII. Suggested as possiibly V4 by Kammerer55 recently in a V5 discussion. I concur. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:30, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:30, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
2. In the past junior high school world history textbooks in Taiwan mentioned this pact.--RekishiEJ (talk) 02:31, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Sergei Witte  5

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Since this person was vital in the industrialization of the Russian Empire, he definitely should be added.

Support

1. As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 15:13, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Toddler  5

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Important state of life between Infancy and Childhood. Interstellarity (talk) 11:21, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 11:21, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Too niche, only encompasses 2 years. The Blue Rider 13:24, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

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Add Crimes against humanity  5

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Fundamental concept of international law alongside War crime  4. 70 interwikis and rated High-Importance by a lot of WikiProjects.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:22, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Remove Bandy  5

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VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Everyday life is at 23 articles over quota, so we've got to take action. This is a niche sport more suitable for V5, I believe. starship.paint (RUN) 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:16, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:15, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom, way to niche for Level 4. Aszx5000 (talk)
5. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:37, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose Bandy is the second most played winter team sport after ice hockey. If we can list 8 tennis players and some figure skaters I think Bandy should be in.  Carlwev  11:23, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

   @Carlwev: - by all means, do nominate to remove some tennis players or figure skaters if they are not vital enough for you. starship.paint (RUN) 13:14, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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