Talk:Al-Manshiyya, Tiberias

Typo

Typo in Khalidi, he writes SWP II, p 362 for Kh. Um Juni, obviously typo for SWP I, p 362. Huldra (talk) 20:33, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

See relevant discussion at Degania Bet

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Degania_Bet
Umm Junieh was separate from Manshiya; when possible, they should be either disconnected or U.J. better linked to the Deganias.
As far as I know, the mill was using the water from Wadi Fijaz (Nahal Yavni'el), and its ruins still stand on the western bank of the Jordan, so across from and below Umm Junieh. U.J. seems to only be the site high up on a promontory above the river on the east, the mill is on the other side, 250 people is not that much - so did the hamlet (houses, not fields) cover both banks? The mill does not need to be part of the/any village. This one could indeed have served both villages. ArmindenArminden (talk) 05:16, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Missing history

I can't find any evidence that this place existed before about 1940. On the map "20-23 21-23" at NLI, the buildings and name for El Manshiya appear in a purple color that indicates it was added to the map in a 1943 revision and was not on the base map updated in 1940. It could be that its omission from the 1940 version was an error, but I don't know of evidence for that. I don't see it on any other maps before 1943 either. Zero^talk 08:24, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

@Zero0000: Once again, I don't have much evidence or ready sources, but this is what I know or found out. Jaffa's walls were taken down in the 1880s, the moat filled in and the city started to grow. In 1909 Ahuzat Bayit was intentionally built far away from Jaffa. Hassan Bek al-Basri built his mosque in 1916 far outside Jaffa too, so either no Manshiya yet, or at the most just the beginnings of. But in 1934 it's on the bus route: see p 177 at [1]. If it was much more than a network of half-empty streets, I don't know. On the map you indicated, Neve Tzedek (NE of the train station) and the German Colony are drawn without any houses, same as Manshiya, only the newer quarters around Little Tel Aviv (see "Gym[nasium]") have houses drawn in black along the streets. Clearly, that says nothing about whether there were many, few, or no houses along the streets, as Neve Tzedek was quite densely build up for instance. So you have a gap of 18 years to fill now, 1916-1934. ArmindenArminden (talk) 20:33, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

@Arminden: You seem to be discussing a different Manshiya. This is the one that used to be just across the Jordan River from Degania. Zero^talk 02:09, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

@Zero0000: Ooops, you're right. Comes from dealing with both at the same time... Got it now. That is most likely just a late extension of El-Ubeidiya. Manshiya means extension (nasha means to grow up, rise; see Iraq al-Manshiyya: "place of growth"). In Jaffa "Manshiyya" was an extension, and so it was here at Ubeidiya. Ubeidiya stood on a tell, the extension leads down to the Roman road - don't know about the history of that section of the road, but further north next to the farm marked on the map as Bitanya (Lower B., actually) the ancient stone pavement is still visible over several stretches (smallish stones, nothing like Via Appia, but neatly laid) and locals call it the Roman road. A guess, true, but I'd bet it's not too far from the truth. So not an autonomous village by any stretch, the plan shows some 26 houses, that's a hamlet at best.
Note the mill across from Umm Juna/Juni, at the end of a straight "Canal" leading W-E from Wadi el-Fajjaz/Fijjaz: the mill's ruins still are visible at the end of an artificially risen, straight embankment, which created the necessary height for the water to move the wheels. The Manshiya residents, if they did indeed "come down the tell" from Ubeidiya, were closer to the fields, road, and mill. Makes one wonder why the others stayed up on the tell. Across the river the map indicates "Kfar Gun". That's now Be(i)t Zera, and the colonists came from a place called Markenhof, a training farm in Germany and the kvutza itself went by either name, Markenhof or Kfar Gun; I am not sure if in 1940 or even 43 it was still called that way. What I want to say is that, altogether, I don't think the Mandate admin. managed to keep up with all the constant changes of name & location. Cheers, ArmindenArminden (talk) 17:53, 20 August 2016 (UTC) PS: Check the Pal. Survey 1944 (1:50,000) 1 (North) shows east of the river just Bitanya and Ubeidiya, and west of it "Deganiya", smth. beginning with a "P" instead of Degania B, and Beit Zera'. I guess this one got it right, not the older one. ArmindenArminden (talk) 18:04, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

This article is wrong A to Z; consider deletion

@Dr. Blofeld, Huldra, and Zero0000: It is striking and obvious that this article doesn't really have a topic. Almost all it contains is about Umm Junieh/Umm Juni/Umm Juna, and almost nothing about an assumed village called Manshiya. That should be more than a warning sign, or rather a reason to delete the "article".

Khalidi is the only source given who mentions it, saying that there are no remains, and makes several claims which appear to be baseless, by implicitly claiming Manshiya existed in the 19th century and in the 1920s. However, from Zero0000's research we learn that the only map ever to mark Manshiyya is a Mandate-period one, namely a 1940 map on which a few years later Manshiya was added by artisanal means (by spirit duplic ator?), in purple pencil or ink. The amended map dates from around 1944. If Manshiya was established after 1940 and depopulated in 1947-48, we hardly have a topic here. So the only source is extremely weak, not to say dismissable.

Third, Manshiya is combined here with Umm Juni, with no sourced reason indicated anywhere, probably because its lands belonged at some point to the same Persian effendi, the Baha'i contractor. On the other hand, Manshiya means "extension"; the 26 houses marked as Al-Manshiya on that only map that shows it, are lined up left & right of a secondary road right next to Ubeidiya, at the base of the mound on which that village stood. Ubeidiya is indeed a village, is mentioned by the SWP, is built on top of an as yet unexcavated tell, and its ruined basalt stone houses are visible until today. From all I can see, this "Manshiya" was an "extension" of Ubeidiya. Speculative, I know, but more logical than anything in this "article".

Unless we have a) a date of establishment, b) some population data (numbers, origin, connection to larger group-Bedouin or felaheen, hamulah, tribe), c) some history of such a place, anything, other than "it was depopulated in 1947-48", it is a non-topic which doesn't deserve a page. Instead, (Tell) Ubeidiya deserves a page (there only is one about the prehistoric site, on which I have myself added the only mention there of the Arab village), as does Umm Juni[eh]. At least they have some history; but if for the time being nothing substantial can be found out about them either, they'll have to wait as well. Not every name in Khalidi's book is worth a page on WP, and this has NOTHING to do with Nakba denial or anything alike, it's basic selection criteria for a so-called encyclopedia. I'd love to have good information readily available on WP on all of these places, but we cannot patch together a name from here and some data from elsewhere and create a page out of that. Cheers, ArmindenArminden (talk) 21:18, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Ok, it is not on SWP 6 (though Um Juneh is clearly marked as a village), it is not in the 1922 census, or 1945 census (see p.72). However, I *do* se it on a map from early 1940s, marked as "Al Manshiya". I´m undecided here; this should perhaps be an article about Um Junieh instead. Huldra (talk) 22:16, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Aiwa! ArmindenArminden (talk) 22:44, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, it is annoying that Khalidi doesn't specify a basis for identifying al-Manshiyya with Umm Juni rather than with Ubeidiya. I'm wondering if that is where the villagers of Umm Juni (who left the original site somewhere between 1922 and 1926) ended up, but that is pure speculation on my part. The 1943 map shows 22 buildings, which is a lot for a place with barely a mention anywhere else. Khalidi places it 2km from Ubeidiya, but actually the distance was more like half a kilometer. At the moment the case for an article on al-Manshiya is weak. We should have one on Umm Juni though, regardless. Zero^talk 00:38, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Some more map evidence: This 1942 map drawn by the New Zealand military shows the buildings of al-Manshiyya but not the name (probably because the revision from earlier maps was based on aerial photos, as it says). This 1951 Israeli map has "al-Manshiya (Ruins)". This 1958 map has the same, but now in Hebrew. (If some of these show as "insufficient permission", register for an account; it is free.) The detail shown by the latter two maps is splendid. Zero^talk 01:11, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

True, great maps. Notice the other small cluster of houses between Manshiya and the river, around the mill - as long as there was peace, people built on w/o caring about names :-) Zero, both my guess & yours (farmers from Ubeidiya or Umm Juni) only have an answer if we know who owned the land, and what hamulah/tribe they were part of. These were most likely the criteria for being allowed to build & work the land. 20-smth. mud huts are less of a big deal than one might think. You wrote mudbrick, that might be usually right in Palestine, but potentially not a must, there are techniques which don't even require making bricks.

Yes, Umm Juni is much more of a topic, can be linked to Degania A, there is literature about it etc. I would leave Manshiya (Tiberias) as a red link on the disamb. page, because it existed, whatever it was, and maybe somebody knows more.

Why are we stuck with just online sources? Huldra, don't you have contact to Arabic-speaking researchers? At least we wouldn't have to guess if smth. like manshiya does mean extension or not, or go to 19th c. sources, which are not always the last word on any issue :-) Maybe there are good sources which are not online. Just a thought. Cheers, ArmindenArminden (talk) 12:16, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Of course we are not only stuck with online sources, (I have a few meters of books on this topic...). Also, Khalidi apparently made extensive use of the "standard work": Mustafa al-Dabbagh: "Biladuna Filastin", (="Our homeland, Palestine"). It was published in Arabic in 11 volumes during 1970s and 1980s. I seem to recall having read somewhere that al-Dabbagh interviewed many Palestinian refugees in Lebanon about their home villages. His works are not online (AFAIK), and not available to me, (and I don´t read Arabic). I don´t know anyone who have a copy (and can read it.)

Also, this (or these) places should be seen in connection with Jisr al-Sidd (the old ruined bridge); there is a bit about it in Petersen, Huldra (talk) 13:26, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Land ownership is indicated by the "plot boundaries", often called "village boundaries" shown on maps like "20-23 21-23" (1943). The boundaries are those dotted lines and the plot names are shown in large letters. Both Ubeidiya and al-Manshiya are in plot "El 'Ubeidiya". On the other side of the river, both Degania A and B lie in plot "Degania" while Kefar Gun (aka Beit Zera) is in plot "Kefar Gun". Comparing that map to the 1951 Israeli map you can see that (surprise, surprise) the first thing that was removed from the maps after 1948 was the plot boundaries. Zero^talk 13:49, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Mustafa al-Dabbagh's work is online here: http://www.palestineremembered.com/Biladuna-Filisteen-Mustafa-Murdad-Dabagh.html but I don't read Arabic either. I believe Ubeida is on page 387, which lies in the section that starts here, but that's as far as I got. It should not be hard to find someone to look. Zero^talk 14:20, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Now we're getting somewhere. Our guesswork is not good enough, even if there were no "original research" ban on WP. I love it too, but in some cases we're putting too much energy into building a quotable fact out of what happens to be available on, say, Google books. It's a bit ironic that we're working on these topics, Huldra probably more than all, with no Arabic-speaking Palestinian around. What about Nableezy, or Amir son (I'm missing part of his pseudonym here), can't they help out? If people with a strong bias, on whatever side, put in too much of a spin, we can still fix that, but reading Arabic... ArmindenArminden (talk) 16:40, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

That Mustafa al-Dabbagh is online is excellent news! Is it the whole 11 books? And both User:Al Ameer son and User:Nableezy are Americans (of Arab decent); I don´t think their Arabic is up to this. User:Makeandtoss is a Jordanian, a native Arab speaker, perhaps he would be willing to help? Huldra (talk) 21:22, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

I currently have no access to a laptop/suitable internet connection, but by initial inspection, googling this in Arabic it seems that the presumed village is also sometimes called, roughly transliterated to "Mashniyyat Al-Samakh".

[www.palestineremembered.com/Tiberias/al-Manshiyya/Story26829.html ] Makeandtoss (talk) 22:32, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Hi. Palestineremembered has nothing new to offer. Let's hope for Dabbagh. I looked up p. 387 about Ubeidiya, even w/o being able to read the content - is it only me, or does it look a bit too short & sketchy? I guess we're down to going into libraries and checking out Mandate-time or IAA surveys. Or not, 'cause it's too much trouble :-) @Makeandtoss:, can "manshiya", as a common noun, be translated as "extension"? Thanks, ArmindenArminden (talk) 21:34, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

No, can't be translated to that. Makeandtoss (talk) 23:02, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss: That's not an answer, it's just contradicting w/o a discussion. Are you sure? Then please offer an alternative etymology. It is a common thing to have places given a descriptive name. The French for instance have faubourg, suburb, and there are lots of Faubourgs in the French-speaking world. Check out the equivalent Arabic "rabad" here (check out for instance here the credentials of the author who defined the word in this way). There are 7 (seven) Manshiyas in Mandate Palestine alone we are aware of just here on Wiki! Nasha means "grow up, rise". Look at the Manshiyyas of Jaffa and Acre: clearly extensions of those cities. And you're just answering "No, can't be translated to that." Well, I'm answering: I don't believe that. Make your case please. What's the root, what are the applied prefixes or suffixes commonly used for, is it a common noun used in spoken or written Arabic or always a place-name, offer examples of "manshiyya/Manshiyya" where there is another meaning documented.

As of now, we have 26 houses added in ink on one map and nothing else.

We're not discussing whether the Haganah or the IDF depopulated villages in the area; that's a clear yes. We're talking about whether there was such a village, or just a short-lived outlying extension of the later depopulated Ubeidiya. The entire article doesn't contain a single word about a village by this name. That's not a base for an encyclopedia entry, unless it's the Monty Python Encyclopaedia of Funny Things. Maybe there was a different tribe or hamula than those living in Ubeidiya who settled there for a decade or so - then go ahead an prove it. So far, it's just yet another plot of land with a name, as we can see plenty on the maps. That doesn't make a village yet; maybe the definition of a hamlet could apply. @Huldra and Zero0000:, let's cut the joke. Either it takes proper shape, or it must be merged into Ubeidiya, as all the reasonable British administrators did. Arminden (talk) 22:16, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

@Arminden: "We have 26 houses added in ink on one map and nothing else" is not a correct statement. Actually it is on many maps, as I detailed somewhere up above. Of course it is true that the maps tell us little about the nature of the place or its history, but a cluster of 26 houses with a name attached is more than many unchallenged villages can boast map-wise. For me the evidence points to this being a significant place for which we are yet to find the right source. Zero^talk 00:42, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

@Zero0000:, you're right, I had overlooked that posting. I didn't doubt the first map, so this adds little: a hamlet, probably a secondary settlement of Ubeidiya (the finding of Makeandtoss, "Mashniyyat Al-Samakh", might just indicate in what area it stood, Samakh was the strategically dominant settlement while Ubeidiya, as we've seen, was itself a widespread name). That is why I suggested to place it as a section of Ubeidiya, like is the case with plenty large, well-documented and historically important villages who are part of communes in other countries. All the details we do have correspond to the definition of a hamlet in England (Hamlet (place)#England): small (probably less than 150 inhabitants; 26x5=130, x7=182 max), secondary settlement, no place of worship, connected to one particular feature or source of income (there was a watermill there). What I am a bit confused about: the name seems to have predated the settlement - you are in the best position to check that. All the unsettled plots of land have names on the maps of the area. The story of the watermill is quite possibly the key to all of it. Arminden (talk) 09:54, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

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@Zero0000, Huldra, Onceinawhile, and Makeandtoss: The discussion re. the meaning of Manshiya and how best to spell it is stretched over 3 discussion pages:

• this one
• Talk:Manshiya, Jaffa
• Talk:Al-Manshiyya, Tulkarm

This doesn't help with reaching a concerted decision. Either we move it all to one place, or at least we should interlink & be aware of the other 2 pages. Arminden (talk) 20:25, 26 December 2021 (UTC)