Talk:Conium maculatum

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 3 April 2019 and 7 June 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Huynhat2. Peer reviewers: Byeology.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 19:26, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Should there be a "Poison hemlock" article?

"Poison hemlock" currently redirects to this article. However, the "Hemlock" disambiguation page states there are several poisonous plants in this same Apiaceae family that are referred to as "hemlock." Should there be a separate article which discusses all of these? Frappyjohn (talk) 20:16, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

The question is whether reliable sources use the precise name "poison hemlock" for other species. If so, I suppose there could be a list article like the one at Hemlock. Peter coxhead (talk) 16:28, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

 Not done. No, species of plants commonly known as hemlock contain the coniine biosynthetic pathway that makes them poisonous. Poisonous hemlock properly redirects to hemlock. Encyclopedic entries need not formally follow usage, which changes quickly and capriciously. Redirects cover usage, without needless duplication of articles. Le Prof 73.210.155.96 (talk) 01:18, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Plagiarised text moved to Talk

The following text content is moved here, as being copied directly from this source, without attribution:

Eight piperidinic alkaloids have been identified in C. maculatum; two of them, gamma-coniceine and coniine, are generally the most abundant, and they account for most of the plant's acute and chronic toxicity. These alkaloids are synthesized by the plant from four acetate units from the metabolic pool, forming a polyketoacid which cyclises through an aminotransferase and forms gamma-coniceine as the parent alkaloid via reduction by a NADPH-dependent reductase.

The text at the source states:

Eight piperidinic alkaloids have been identified in this species. Two of them, gamma-coniceine and coniine are generally the most abundant and they account for most of the plant acute and chronic toxicity. These alkaloids are synthesized by the plant from eight acetate units from the metabolic pool, forming a polyketoacid which cyclises through an aminotransferase and forms gamma-coniceine as the parent alkaloid via reduction by a NADPH-dependent reductase.

It can be returned to the text as a paraphrase, with proper attribution, to replace the earlier clear plagiarism. Le Prof 73.210.155.96 (talk) 01:25, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

PEER REVIEW

It was a bit difficult to tell which part of the article you edited, so this peer review might be somewhat general. Overall, this article had a neutral tone and the information included was relevant. I enjoyed the name and description sections of the article, they were detailed and comprehensive enough to provide a good background of the plant. In the toxicity section, it would be helpful to talk more about the studies involving the intoxication of animals that is mentioned in the first paragraph. This section was also a bit hard to follow in terms of the explanation. Are the alkaloids in the tissues what makes the plant poisonous? How does the poison affect mammals but not bees and butterflies (pollinators)? Do all species in the genus contain the same precursors in the same amount? It may be helpful to reorganize the information in this section to flow more logically. The sources you used are solid. In the toxicology section, it would be great to expand more on the point about how poisoned animals return to feed on the plant. What attracts them to the plant in the first place, and are their brains affected by the poison? The paragraph about historical references is entertaining, but may be a bit outdated. It would be helpful to find a more recent/relevant example of hemlock poisoning to add to this section. Great job, keep up the good work! -Byeology (talk) 20:08, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

Response to peer review

Thank you so much for your comments. They are very contributive and helpful. There are not a lot of articles that discuss this particular topic; therefore, I could not find more relevant sources for this edit. However, I was able to act on one of your suggestions and explain why animals are attracted to poison hemlock and why there are many poisonous cases caused by poison hemlock. Huynhat2 (talk) 21:59, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

Discrepancy between this article and Coniine article

In this article, it states that someone who ingests poison hemlock will (usually) fall unconscious after a certain time has passed, and unconsciousness will deepen into a coma until death occurs from the cessation of breathing. However, in the coniine article, it states that someone who has ingested coniine (presumably in any form) will remain conscious and awake until the lungs become paralysed, because (as the article states) “coniine has no effect on the nervous system.” Is this a contrasting issue, or does poison hemlock have some sleep-inducing property that coniine on its own does not? Androvax (talk) 16:00, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

• The Coniine article contradicts itself. Early in the article it says "its mechanism of poisoning involves disruption of the central nervous system, with death caused by respiratory paralysis." The latter part is unreferenced. UserTwoSix (talk) 16:23, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Nicotine-like but inhibits acetylcholine?

Sorry, I'm new to proposing something on wiki, but the header says it all. I find it sketchy and would like to see a real review cited on this particular opinion. Nicotine-like substances will mostly stimulate/activate the N-acetylcholine receptors, not block/inhibit them (AFAIK from pharmacology class). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.201.34.176 (talk) 18:32, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Is the pollen safe?

I can't find any source about the pollen of poison hemlock. Does it contain any toxin? Obviously we want to stay away from deliberately eating any part of the plant, but what if bees make honey that contain some pollen (and nectar) from poison hemlock? Would that be toxic to humans? Dhrm77 (talk) 12:17, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Note: Contrary to what some honey distributors would want us to believe, bees don't source their nectar and pollen from a single type of plants. Dhrm77 (talk) 15:12, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Marketing tip: probably don't use "Pure honey made from poison hemlock"! Martinevans123 (talk) 15:21, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Good question, as the article says unequivocally: "All parts of the plant are toxic". However the relevant single supporting source here says, "All parts of poison-hemlock (leaves, stem, fruit, and root) are poisonous...", not mentioning flowers or seeds at all? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:43, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I should have been more specific. There are tons of example of usage where the word "all" doesn't actually mean "everything". Furthermore, you can argue that since the pollen is not really attached, it is not technically part of the plant. Dhrm77 (talk) 12:57, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Well it starts off being attached! lol Martinevans123 (talk) 13:00, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Generally the nectar and pollen of poisonous plants are much less toxic than the plant. But with many plants such very specific questions have never been studied. Honeybees also gather from many different plants at once, unless there is a great bounty of one flower and it is also a good nectar producer. Lastly, dose makes the poison. Apple seeds are poisonous but no human has ever died from eating a whole apple, pips included. Summary: this is probably unknown but very likely to be safe. 🌿MtBotany (talk) 13:45, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying. The claim still seems to be poorly sourced. But there have never been any studies, not much we can do. I am assuming the pollen and nectar are not toxic to bees or other pollinators. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:22, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

And thanks for mentioning nectar, which is the word I should have used instead.... Dhrm77 (talk) 15:09, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Also, toxicity doesn't necessarily means death. What if, assuming one consumes honey partially made from poison hemlock, and toxicity is low, there might still be ill effects where the symptoms might resemble something else. It's something that might be nice to know. Regardless, thanks for your replies, and I hope someone will do this study some day. Dhrm77 (talk) 14:59, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Usually such studies are only done in response to an incident. For example a honeybee die off from consumption of nectar from Toxicoscordion flowers caused several scientists to investigate the toxicity of the flowers over the decades after it was reported. According to what I've read in those studies toxicity to bees is rare in flowers for two reasons.

One: Most plants that depend upon generalist pollinators like honeybees reduce the toxicity of their nectar. Flowers like meadow death camas (Toxicoscordion venenosum) that have toxic nectar and pollen need specialist pollinators like the death camas miner bee.

Two: Under normal conditions generalist bees perceive the toxicity of nectar of flowers like meadow death camas and avoid the flowers after just one or two sips. In one of the studies I read when working on the article for meadow death camas the scientist observed the generalist orchard mason bee extending its tongue and grooming after visiting the flowers and were only induced to keep visiting under the experimental conditions. In the wild bees that are poisoned by the flowers probably do not keep visiting unless there is a lack of other food sources. Not useful for an article, but I have observed this personally. A bumble bee visited a death camas flower, but only very briefly and thereafter only visited other flowers in the same general area.

I have only come across one well documented circumstance where honey that is poisonous to humans is produced by bees consuming poisonous nectar. The "mad honey" that is sometimes found in Turkey and Nepal, and famously was used by villagers near Trabzon to disable Greek soldiers in 65 BCE. 🌿MtBotany (talk) 17:53, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

How amazing. Thanks so much for explaining all that. All the wiki worker bees are now going to rush off to Toxicoscordion venenosum! Martinevans123 (talk) 18:04, 11 May 2024 (UTC)