Talk:Countries of the United Kingdom/Archive 6

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No consensus, and a brand new source

The RfC discussion at Talk:Flag of Northern Ireland I linked to previously has now closed in a manner that tends to indicate that there is no consensus around "no flag" for Northern Ireland. There is also now this[1] video from Her Majesty The Queen's 90th birthday gala at Windsor on Sunday, May 15 2016 in which the four countries of the UK are represented by, respectively, the Flag of England for England, the Flag of Northern Ireland for Northern Ireland, the Flag of Scotland for Scotland and the Flag of Wales for Wales. As you might expect. (The relevant sequence begins at 59:30 in the video). Miles Creagh (talk) 17:01, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

You spotted the banner used at a birthday celebration indicates that the banner is in use. It doesn't contract the Flags Regulations (Northern Ireland) Order 2000 or the Flags Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2002 which exclude its use. No one is questioning the fact that it is used, and that it has in some very limited circumstances been used to represent sport. But then sport itself sometimes includes parts of Ireland itself, the missing three so that is confused anyway. We have this on political articles all the time. People find a video on line and make assertions based on it. Its called original research. You don't know the basis of use, if Government was aware of the use and/or did or would have endorsed it. The two orders referenced picked up on some of the missing items in the GFA. ----Snowded TALK 04:34, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
In fact, neither of the two sets of regulations you adduce mention the Northern Ireland flag at all, as they are concerned quite narrowly with what flags may be flown from UK (central) government buildings in NI. No one is suggesting that the Northern Ireland flag represents the UK government in NI, any more than the Dragon Goch represents the UK government in Wales. The Northern Ireland flag represents Northern Ireland, quite obviously, as in the video, which is a ITV broadcast of the official celebration of the 90th birthday of HM The Queen, while the flag bearers in the sequence in question are members of the military. I'm not following your point about sport at all, I'm afraid. If it is your position that one of the "missing items" of the Good Friday Agreement is the issue of flags, you are quite right: the GFA didn't resolve the question of flags and emblems, and the text of the Agreement doesn't even mention the Northern Ireland flag. If you mean to contend that the two sets of UK regulations you mention did somehow subsequently resolve the question, then you need to explain this[2] report on the 2013 Haass talks (which themselves did not ultimately result in agreement), that says Haass was proposing at that time - a decade or more after the UK flag regs you set such store by - a new flag to "replace" the Ulster banner flag, which is pictured in the article and identified as "the Northern Ireland flag". In fact, there are multiple reliable sources that identify it as such. I haven't seen any sources at all that that support your claim, across several talk pages now, that the Northern Ireland flag's status was in any way affected by the GFA. Miles Creagh (talk) 05:40, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
The point is really very simple. We have a long period (for which you have citations) when the Ulster Banner was used officially. Then we get a complex period involving direct rule and culminating in power sharing and the GFA. This then results in two specific orders that mandate which flags can be flown and when then can be flown. The Ulster Banner is not included in that. There have been (as you reference) discussions to create a new flag which could provide the same function as the UB without the sectarian history of the UB. I haven't see you quote any source post 2000 which says the UB has an official status other than the sporting uses. If you have them please share them with links now. ----Snowded TALK 06:33, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
The Znamierowski source I posted below (scan here) is 2003, not that the 2000 act even mentions the Northern Ireland flag, just protocol for flying the Union Jack. Cauleyflower (talk) 10:51, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
Yes, I notice the contention that anything happened in 2000 to affect that status of the Northern Ireland's flag seems to have been quietly dropped. Miles Creagh (talk) 22:40, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
Well, I agree that there are ample citations for a long period when the Ulster banner - which is officially named the Northern Ireland flag per this "Clashing Symbols?: A Report on the Use of Flags, Anthems and Other National Symbols in Northern Ireland" by Clem McCartney; Page 2: "The flag of the Government of Northern Ireland is often called 'the Ulster flag', but we have called it by its official name, the 'Northern Ireland flag'..."reliable source - was used to represent Northern Ireland. But I disagree that that period ended when you contend it did, in 2000 or 2002, as seems obvious from the fact that it has just been used to represent Northern Ireland this past weekend in perhaps the most high-profile manner possible, the Queen's official 90th birthday celebration. The "two specific orders" you rely upon do not "result" from power sharing or the GFA. In fact they are nothing to do with either. They are the UK government determining by sole exercise of its sovereign authority what flags may be flown from specified UK government buildings in NI and are principally concerned, as one might expect, with the display of its own flag, the Union flag, display of the supranational EU flag, the courtesy display of flags of visiting foreign heads of state and government, and are nothing to do with the Northern Ireland flag at all. Miles Creagh (talk) 07:04, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
The idea that those two orders do not relate to the GFA is naive beyond belief (I am assuming good faith here). The two orders exclude other flags so it is pretty clear. Now do you have a reliable third party, post 2000 source which says it is the official flag of Northern Ireland (or the de facto) ----Snowded TALK 10:49, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
2000 is a red-herring, as nothing happened to change the status of the Northern Ireland flag that year, and you haven't demonstrated it did. The Irish Times article linked above, which has a picture of the Ulster banner and describes it as the Northern Ireland flag, is from 2013. And then there is the fact that the Northern Ireland flag was used just this weekend to represent NI, alongside the other flags of the four countries of the UK, at the official birthday celebration of HM The Queen. And, in the famously unwritten British constitution, you just don't get more official than Her Madge. Miles Creagh (talk) 13:01, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Miles, at the flag heading of the table, as well as adding as a source a link to the May 2016 video of QEII's 90th birthday celebrations with the flags of all 4 constituent countries present, I would add to the article this source you mentioned: 

"Flags and Arms Across The World", by the preeminent American vexilologist Whitney Smith and on page 226, under the heading "United Kingdom subdivisions" there is pictured the Ulster banner, captioned "Northern Ireland", directly under the St George's cross flag, captioned "England", and above the Saint Andrew's saltire, captioned "Scotland".

Snowded's obsession with the Flags Regulations Act 2000 is indeed a desperate red herring as all that act states is that the Union Flag must be flown on designated days on a mere 7 central government buildings (similar buildings in England, Scotland and Wales which would probably only fly the Union Flag as well). It doesn't make any bold general statements about flag status nor does it mention any other flags; there is nothing there which supports this ongoing politically-motivated censorship of the Northern Ireland flag. Jonto (talk) 15:36, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I agree those are reliable sources that should be added to the article. Miles Creagh (talk) 15:51, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
Whitney Smith is author of Encyclopædia Britannica Online's Flag of Northern Ireland article...no Ulster Banner...Bosley John Bosley (talk) 18:24, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
Yes, the Britannica article has been a longstanding source at the Flag of Northern Ireland article. Here are the relevant pages [3] of his "Flags and Arms Across the World", which I have taken the liberty of scanning to my Google-plus page, as I couldn't find them online otherwise. You are of course also free to locate the book itself, as I did, to verify the info the old-fashioned way! Miles Creagh (talk) 19:12, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
The event on Video is not the Queen's official birthday which is in June...not sure why she needs two birthdays in one year; the military uniforms were not official ceremonial but historic; and the author of your field book himself provides the official most reliable source that the flag has officially disappeared. Bosley John Bosley (talk) 20:04, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
An official celebration of her birthday, not her official birthday. The uniforms may be historic, but "historic" does not equal "out of use" in British tradition, a concept that has considerable relevance here. When and how do you contend the flag disappeared, and how is Smith a source for that? Seems to me he is a source for the opposite view. Miles Creagh (talk) 21:07, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
You don't have a post 2000 source Miles and try not to to mislead people, the regulation says that no other flags shall be flown. It is pretty clear. ----Snowded TALK 21:58, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
The regulation says that no other flags shall be flown from a specified number of UK government buildings in NI, yes. They don't say anything about the uses of the Northern Ireland flag by local government, to represent Northern Ireland internationally in sport, or to represent Northern Ireland alongside the other countries of the UK at royal events, which uses continued as we have just seen demonstrated. (You're big on context, so it might interest you to know that most of the commentary on the regulations at the time they were propagated in 2000 centred on how they were aimed at preventing Sinn Fein ministers from refusing to fly the Union flag from government buildings in Northern Ireland, or indeed attempting to fly the Irish tricolour. Prior to the regs, there was no legal requirement that the Union flag be flown at all: it had been flown on certain days purely through custom and practice, in the traditional British manner. See here [4].) Also, can you please address the Irish Times article on Haass, from 2013, which pictures the Ulster banner and identifies it as the Northern Ireland flag? Miles Creagh (talk) 22:19, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
Your contention that the 2000 regulations changed the status of the UB is original research and based on your own interpretation of the regulations. Conor Murphy MLA had a similar contention and claimed that the regulations were discriminatory and applied for a judicial review. In his judgement Justice Kerr stated
As Mr Mandelson stated, in introducing the Flags Order to the House of Commons, the flying of the Union flag is not designed to favour one tradition over another; it merely reflects Northern Ireland’s constitutional position as part of the United Kingdom.[5]
This is precisely why original research and synthesis is not allowed. Your interpretation, no matter how much you believe it to be based in fact, remains just that. In this case it is in direct contradiction with the only interpretation that matters when it comes to British law. You cannot continue arguing that sources are invalid with anything other than contradictory reliable sources which make direct reference to the subject. Eckerslike (talk) 00:06, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

I see that the Ulster Banner has been inserted as Northern Ireland's flag. Not sure if that's premature or not. GoodDay (talk) 17:06, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

it isn't. It is used in Northern Ireland per the sources but the assertions that it is are based on original research and are unsourced. It is getting pretty obvious that this is going to have to be raised under the Arb Com ruling on the Troubles articles as we have a set of tag teaming editors who are not prepared to gain consensus on the talk pages before making changes ----Snowded TALK 20:23, 22 May 2016 (UTC)
Well, I agree it isn't premature! Miles Creagh (talk) 23:37, 22 May 2016 (UTC)


Here's another nice source from the British Council ("The United Kingdom's international organisation for cultural relations and educational opportunities." -- founded by the British Government and run by Royal Charter):

Four Nations video (video transcript).
Four Nations exercise answer sheet

Jonto (talk) 00:53, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

The quote is "most often used" in respect of representation which is hardly a significant statement and a quiz thrown together for teenagers is hardly a significant source We can take that to the RS notice board as well if we want but live would be a lot easier if you would read WP:RS before making statements. ----Snowded TALK 05:48, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
And this article censors and states "none" -- something not true. The British Council is an extremely reliable source run under Royal Charter, and designated by the British government to represent the interests of the United Kingdom throughout the world. Basic information like the countries of the UK is likely to be taught to learners of English as a foreign language, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with this as this is the usual place such basic information on any country is taught. *You* do not control what happens here on Wikipedia and not every little thing that *you* personally don't like (against consensus) needs to go through some bureaucracy. You need to drop your pathetic bitter political campaign against Northern Irish people here -- why a Welsh nationalist supports Irish Nationalism but hates Ulster Nationalism so much is an enigma to me. Jonto (talk) 10:57, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
Well, the British Council source does tend to indicate that in contexts where the flags of all four countries are given graphic representation, say in a table such as we have in the article here, then the Northern Ireland flag is not omitted. Same goes for the Whitney Smith reference[6] book. Miles Creagh (talk) 12:50, 24 May 2016 (UTC)


Here is an excellent source showing flags of all 4 constituent countries together in one place: 

Scan of quoted pages Znamierowski, Alfred (2003). Illustrated Book of Flags: The Complete Encyclopedia of International Flags, Banners, Standards and Ensigns. London: Southwater / Anness Publishing Ltd. pp. 148–149. ISBN 978-1842158814. "Presented here are the flags of the four parts of the United Kingdom (England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland)... England, National Flag, The red cross of St George on a white field... a white saltire of St Andrew has been the Scottish national symbol (since the 15th century on a blue field)... Wales, National Flag, The red dragon (Y Ddraig Goch)... white and green were the livery colours of the Welsh Prince LLewellyn... Northern Ireland, National Flag, The star representing the six counties is ensigned with the royal crown and charged with the red hand of Ulster."

Cauleyflower (talk) 10:46, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

It would help matters, if the Ulster Banner was left out during dicussions. GoodDay (talk) 12:26, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Slow edit warring again

Please don't resume this after my previous protection of the page expired. The article is covered by the arbitration remedies to do with The Troubles, and I think it will all end very badly for people if this continues. Talk more or go to dispute resolution.  DDStretch  (talk) 13:35, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

You might want to protect it again. If editors persist in adding back disputed material against long standing consensus positions when there is no agreement to that on the talk page then it is reasonable to revert. If they persist (there has been lots of talking) then it is ArbCom sanctions on Troubles rather than dispute resolution. ----Snowded TALK 21:56, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
If (and it seems likely so) the Resources noticeboard rejects the Queen's 90th birthday celebrations link as a reliable source? Then indeed Northern Ireland should be presented as having no flag of its own. The article should be 'again' protected, until this issue is resolved. GoodDay (talk) 22:05, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
Yep, I'm playing it by the book and going to the RS notice board for advice - so please no accusations of edit warring :-) ----Snowded TALK 22:30, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
If this article is covered by arbitration remedies to do with The Troubles, then it does appear that User:Snowded is in breach of 1RR with these[7][8] edits, which seem to be two very clear reverts within 15 minutes, never mind 24 hours. Miles Creagh (talk) 23:32, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
Actually, strike that, as I realise one of the reverts is of an IP, which may be reverted without penalty under Arbcom Troubles sanctions. Also, there isn't actually a Troubles template on this page so how is anyone supposed to keep this all straight? Miles Creagh (talk) 00:12, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
You might want to try engaging with policy on reliable sources and using the talk page before trying to game the system like this. you knew perfectly well that there was no consensus to use the Ulster Banner here, you knew it would be reverted. That type of behaviour is disruptive and can be easily referenced if this goes for Arbcom enforcement ----Snowded TALK 05:48, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
Well, I've asked you above to address this Dec 2013 reliable source[9], an article from The Irish Times, which pictures the Ulster banner and identifies it as the Northern Ireland flag, but you ducked out on the discussion at that point. Hard to discuss with someone who doesn't address sources when asked directly to do so. Miles Creagh (talk) 12:46, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
It was addressed by another editor who also gave you multiple other references. You are getting int the bad habit of making incomplete at best, false at worst, statements in an attempt to appear reasonable. The source in question is about the possibility of finding a replacement for the UB, the only reference is a an abbreviated caption which could as well refer to the historical status (in fact in the context it clearly does). ----Snowded TALK 21:50, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
Where has The Irish Times article been addressed by another editor? I'll ignore your failure to AGF and simply observe that - not for the first time - your reading of "historical status" into sources that make no reference to such requires considerable interpretation and OR on your part. Also, can you please address my question above about the citations for the other three countries flag icons that appear in the article presently? Because I'm not seeing any cites for them at all. Miles Creagh (talk) 22:26, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
You have a whole list of sources and counters on the Flag or Northern Ireland article as you well know. My point was that multiple meanings can be drawn from an abbreviated caption, like your video of the HM event it is just not good enough, something you seem incapable of accepting even after all independent editors on the RS notice board pointed it out. If you want sourcing otherwise look on the articles for the flags in question or the relevant countries. ----Snowded TALK 22:33, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
It's not really good enough just to say "there's whole list of sources" in some other discussion. We are discussing this article, and sourcing here. As for the video of the birthday event, at the RS noticeboard we have agreed a specific use and wording that it can support, and I have accepted that. Now, you claimed above that the use of the other three flags in the table was "properly established by citation". In fact there seem to be no citations for them at all in the article at present. What citations did you have in mind when you made your prior claim? Miles Creagh (talk) 22:54, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
Rather than putting individual citations on each flag, it would be better putting citations into the table header which placing all 4 subnational flags together as one grouping. i.e. as done by your Whitney Smith source, British Council, Queen's 90th celebrations, The Guardian, and another 2009 vexillology source which I will post when I get the book in the post :D Jonto (talk) 23:31, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that as this article is about all four Countries of the UK, it woud be optimum if the sources identified all four flags together as such . Miles Creagh (talk) 23:39, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

"Flags of the four countries" in The Guardian 24/5/2016

From today's Guardian[10]. "Flags of the Four Countries of the UK" are pictured and identified as such. It does appear that the weight of the evidence continues to accumulate in favour of adding theNorthern Ireland to the table of flag icons in our article . Miles Creagh (talk) 23:29, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

We've been to the RS notice board on this and it has been explained to you there. Remember use is not denied or challenged, but representation is an issue. If it was significant (or becomes significant) then it would be reported as such, You should revert and stop tag teaming with Jonto on this ----Snowded TALK 03:50, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
Actually we're at the RS notice board on this particular source right now. The "representation" here is of the flags of the four countries of the UK, per the plain terms in the source. No doubt you'll want to offer your interpretation that this is a "historical display", but that's getting a bit old. I'm certainly not tag-teaming with anyone, and I didn't actually add the NI flag to the article in my most recent edits, but neither will I be reverting as the addition has been extensively discussed and the sources seem good to me. Miles Creagh (talk) 04:03, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
You should abide by decisions on the RS notice board - that has not been the case here where a source which has been rejected is used along with another source of the same type. It is UNDUE and Original Research as you have already been told by all the independent editors who engaged. I'm not offering any interpretation, just saying that a primary source can be subject to many interpretations which is why they cannot be used. Failure to resolve issues on the talk page and tag teaming. ----Snowded TALK 12:19, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
Yes, I have already indicated, here and at RS, that I accept the agreement made on the RS board about the video and how it may be used. As yet, uninvolved editors haven't weighed in on The Guardian as a source, and you shouldn't imply that they have, or that a newspaper article which pictures the four flags and identifies them in plain terms as the flags of the Countries of the UK is neccessarily another source of the same type. There is no interpretation required of that, and it seems clearly relevant to this article and to our present issue which is, after all, about the Countries of the UK and their flags. Miles Creagh (talk) 13:32, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
Personally I think they have realised that you are not listening to what they are clearly saying, one realised that you were attempting to use that video as a president for wider change and stopped trying to reach a compromise at that point. If you want the diff it would be easy to find. You can't do original research based on a photograph or a video. If it is notable then it would be commented on. In contrast to the Guardian article you have quotes from the House of Lords which make it clear the UB is not the flag of Northern Ireland and that has more authority. Where was the photograph taken? What was the context of use? Who was responsible for putting them up? The fact that a sub editor uses it with an abbreviated heading is not an authoritative source ----Snowded TALK 15:02, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
"Personally I think" is the problem here. What you personally think is your POV, and good for you, but it's not terribly relevant to our efforts to build an encyclopedia. Your reading of The Guardian source requires considerable interpretation and OR. The observable fact is that the source pictures five flags, and identifies them in terms as the flags of the countries of the UK flying behind the Union flag. Like it or WP:DONTLIKEIT.Miles Creagh (talk) 16:06, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
And here's more than a dozen reliable sources—including government sources and Ulster unionists—stating outright that the Ulster Banner is "not the official flag" of Northern Ireland and is not widely accepted by its people:
Sources confirming that the Ulster Banner is not the official flag of NI
  • The Flag Institute: "The Ulster flag is different from the Ulster Banner, which was the former flag of Northern Ireland but now holds no official status".
  • The Complete Guide to National Symbols and Emblems, Greenwood Publishing, 2009, p.486: "The official flag of the province is the Union Jack. There is no official national flag of Northern Ireland, following the Northern Ireland Constitution Act of 1973, nor any unofficial flag universally accepted in Northern Ireland".
  • Contemporary Britain, Palgrave Macmillan, 2012, p.53: "The old flag of Northern Ireland – a red hand inside a white star on a red cross – has strong connections with the Protestant community, and is no longer official but is still occasionally flown. The official flag of Northern Ireland is the Union Flag".
  • Clashing Symbols?: A Report on the Use of Flags, Anthems and Other National Symbols in Northern Ireland, Queen's University Belfast, 1994. pp.150–151: "In December 1986 the Northern Ireland Office produced an Explanatory Document on the [Flags and Emblems Act], which stated: [...] "Repeal of the Act would make no change whatsoever to the position that the Union flag is the official flag of Northern Ireland as it is of the United Kingdom as a whole".
  • Flag, Nation and Symbolism in Europe and America, Routledge, 2007: "This Ulster flag was abandoned in 1973 when the Belfast Stormont parliament was dissolved, and, since then, the Union Jack has been the only official flag in Northern Ireland".
  • Flags: Towards a New Understanding, Queen's University Belfast, 2016, p.6: "following the Northern Ireland Constitution Act of 1973, the Ulster Banner ceased to have any official standing, but there followed a huge increase in its unofficial use as a symbol of loyalism".
  • Sport Northern Ireland, Promoting Fair Play in Sport, p.9: "Many existing flags have no official status and this includes the former Northern Ireland ‘flag’ (or flag of the Executive Committee of the Privy Council of Northern Ireland or Ulster Banner)".
  • Peter Hain, Secretary of State for Northern Ireland: "The Ulster flag and the Cross of St. Patrick have no official status and under the Flags Regulations are not permitted to be flown from Government Buildings".[11]
  • Lord Davies of Oldham, a British government member of the House of Lords: "The union flag is the only official flag that represents Northern Ireland".[12]
  • Lord Kilclooney, a Unionist member of the House of Lords and of the British parliament's Flags and Heraldry Committee: "However, whilst England (St George's Cross) Scotland (St Andrew's Cross) and Wales (The Dragon) have individual regional flags, the Flags Institute in London confirms that Northern Ireland has no official regional flag".[13]
  • Fraser Agnew, a Unionist member of the Northern Ireland Assembly: "The Ulster flag [...] was a civil flag for Northern Ireland, but its official status was abolished when the Northern Ireland Parliament was closed down in 1973. Thereafter, the Union flag was made the official flag in Northern Ireland. That is a fact".[14]
  • The Northern Ireland Foundation: "It was the official flag of Northern Ireland from then until the Northern Ireland government was suspended in 1972, and has had no official standing since that time".
  • The BBC: "But what would you say if we told you that the flag commonly associated with Northern Ireland, has no official status?".
  • UTV: "Northern Ireland does not currently have its own official flag, and the Union flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the only flag used by government".
  • Flags of the World: "The Union Jack is the only official flag of Northern Ireland".
~Asarlaí 15:52, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
The flags of the four countries don't need to be "official" to represent their respective countries in this article. The St George's cross is not the "official" flag of England, and is not uncontroversial to some, yet it represents England in the flag table in the article. No, we just need to show that in contexts in which all four countries of the UK are given pictorial representation by flags, the flag of Northern Ireland is commonly used to represent Northen Ireland. The British Council source states that explicitly, while The Guardian and the Whitney Smith book picture all four flags and identify them as the flags of their respective country of the UK. Miles Creagh (talk) 17:33, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
Those Asarlaí sources don't define what "official" means in terms of the body they refer to. The Northern Ireland flag is flown officially by councils in NI. It's status is indeed little different to that of England. There was nothing wrong with any of the sources in the article, and all should be reinstated -- deleting sources like that should result in sanctions for disruptive editing Jonto (talk) 21:11, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
Yes, the key point here is that, in British tradition, "official" is a hard concept to pin down, and perhaps especially so in matters of heraldry and vexillology. In fact none of the flags of the four countries received their status as subnational flags through legislation, and the UK has no "Flag Act" conferring "official" status even on the Union flag itself. So they are all "unofficial" by a certain reading. But, while it may be true in a narrow sense to say that "England has no official flag", and even find sources [15] [16][17] that say as much, it is not at all the same thing as saying "England has no flag" - it clearly does, the St George's cross flag, which has come to occupy that position over time through common use, and is increasingly popular - although by no means universally so[18]. Does anyone want to suggest that the England flag icon should come out of the table in the article? Miles Creagh (talk) 22:56, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
What is clear is that there is no consensus here to add in the UB as the flag of Northern Ireland. I'm not aware of any sources which state explicitly that the Cross of St George is not the flag of England, while we do have those of the UB in respect of Northern Ireland. It maybe that common use will emerge over time in which case it will be reported in reliable third party sources without controversy. Wikipedia is clear, if changes are contested there has to be a consensus on the talk page to sustain them. ----Snowded TALK 02:56, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
What is clear is that most editors who have contributed to this discussion favour representing all four countries with their respective common flag in the article. And per WP:CONSENSUS, unanimity is not required - and probably not attainable in an area such as this, which has always been controversial, and has never seen a true, stable consensus prevail across the encyclopaedia. We must continue be WP:BOLD and follow where the WP:RS lead. Miles Creagh (talk) 04:04, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
No it isn't, you have three editors putting it in and at least three have taken it out (more over the last year) as it is not supported by the evidence. Until you have a consensus based agreement on the talk page it should not be reinserted. The neoflag position has been stable for years aside from odd brief periods of vandalism. Present the evidence here, call an RfC if necessary but stop edit warring. ----Snowded TALK 08:57, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
In agreement with Snowded, WP:BRD must be respected, here. GoodDay (talk) 09:43, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
Snowded lying again, what a surprise! You have sources stating nothing of the sort about Northern Ireland. The status is near-identical of that of England. Jonto (talk) 17:01, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
The Ulster Banner does not have the same standing as the flags of England, Scotland and Wales. The St George's Cross is acknowledged as the flag of England by the British government[19] and the United Kingdom's Flag Institute,[20] and is allowed to be flown from government buildings in England. It's also widely accepted by the people of England as their national flag. The Ulster Banner is not acknowledged as the flag of Northern Ireland by the British or Northern Ireland governments, nor by the Flag Institute, and is not allowed to be flown from government buildings.[21] Furthermore, it's not accepted by a big part of Northern Ireland's population. As I said before, if numerous reliable sources state that the St George's Cross has "no official status", then that should be noted on the flag of England article – as the same is noted on the flag of Northern Ireland article. ~Asarlaí 21:39, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
Those sources indicate that the St George's Cross was "acknowledged by the British government" in the sense that it was sanctioned to be flown (in secondary position) from certain buildings on a single day of the year - April 23. And that happened through guidance only in 2012. Are you seriously suggesting that it wasn't the Flag of England before that date? Miles Creagh (talk) 21:49, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
The Flag Institute is also a red herring as they have no formal relationship with the government but are an independent organisation. The official registry for UK flags is the College of Arms. As stated at the end of this FAQ. Eckerslike (talk) 08:08, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

1rr restriction now clearly signed and in place

Ok. Because of the content of this edit warring, I draw all your attentions to the troubles template at the top of the page. It applies to all sides of this dispute. And I will be adding this template to all pages where there have been instances of slow-edit warring about the Northerm Ireland flag. I will also be working my way through individual's talk pages to add a similar notice. I note that some of you have already been sanctioned for breaaching the rules on Troubles restrictions. I suggest they tread very carefully from now on. I will not hesitate to protect articles if any similar actions take place beyond this point which have happened leading up to this message. I will shortly try to suggest a neutral way out of this quagmire you 'all are in over this. I do not want people to be blocked. Just behave better, please.  DDStretch  (talk) 20:08, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

I have semi-protected this page so that, I hope, anonymous IP users can no longer edit it. This will be in place for one month which could be shortened if things are reconciled before then.  DDStretch  (talk) 20:17, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. I await your suggestion of a way forward with interest, and I will make no further edits to the table of flag icons in the article until then. I invite all other involved editors to give a similar undertaking. Miles Creagh (talk) 20:23, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

A way forward

No one likes to see competant editors risk getting into trouble when they are in dispute with each other and edit wars take place. Given the sensitivity of issues concerning this matter here, it is all the more important that I want to prevent action being taken by others against people here who are otherwise good wikipedians. So, I want to propose a halt to the edit warring that is happening on both sides here. Hurling insults around to each other should stop, too: all of us should know better than this (and I do not accept that my use of "edit warring" is insulting to any specific person, but it is an accurate description of what has been happening here taken as a whole.) Let's try to help each other more, rather than engage in behavious that just inflames things. Calm down a bit, please!

Back around 2008, there was a similar vlarge uproar concerning whether England, Northern Ireland, Scotland, and Wales should be called countries or not. I suggested a solution that worked quite well for that dispute in so much as nothing major has happened since. I am a little sad that, in the break I had, the large table that so many worked on to list all the possibilities and the evidence from different sources that supported them (or not) was removed, because I think it significantly added to the article, but I am just one editor, so it's past. But I want to propose that all of you work together to try to do the same thing. If we are all wikipedians who agree with the principles of wikipedia, then we must write the articles in the way the reliable sources lead us to want to write it (including dealing with ambiguity in a sensitive way rather than being black and white about it, where necesssary. We must always be open to having our own biases and prejudices challenged and overcome.

1. We can do this in a supportive atmosphere by all working together to construct as definitive a list of critically-evaluated sources as possible. So, I suggest a procedure is agreed upon that is ruthlessly neutral in its approach: sources are searched out and compiled in a large list with no squabbles about their addition. The work should proceed with everyone working together to list sources. They need to be fully sourced in that references to their source should be provided.

2. At this stage, I suggest that no evaluation takes place at all.

3. Once a reasonable number have been collected, I then suggest an additional procedure can begin to take place where the evaluation of these sources can begin. I suggest that the evaluation should pay attention to their relative reliability and authoritative nature to each other. This is where some disagreements can happen, but if there are some, I suggest that various guidelines about reliable sources be consulted and, if necessary, asking other neutral editors to comment on them.

4. I hope that a small list of sources might be found that are deemed reliable, some are found that are seen to be worthy of no further considerationb, and a large group (I hope not enormously large) or disputed sources.

5. I anticipate that there may be some initial discussion about separately considering sources which talk about the Flag of Northern Ireland and other terms that are used.

6. Breaking the procedure down into a number of stages will, I hope, reduce the problem of people arguing at different lavels and a undifferentiated mish-mash of evidence being drip-fed to others in a way which prevents the entire picture being seen.

7. It may be that a form of words and inclusion of flags can be achieved that satisfies everyone by thiss procesdure, and I hope it will, in any case, give everyone experience of working tyogether more so that disagreements can occur in a more seemly manner.

Thank you.  DDStretch  (talk) 21:00, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

I must apologize for not being able to take a more active part in any process: in fact this may be a good thing. However, I have other issues in real life that mean my involvement must be a rather brief for the moment.  DDStretch  (talk) 21:03, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for taking the time on this. It would be useful to be able to have sight of the table that was created on the "countries" question previously, so we can see what we would be working towards. Is it still available anywhere? Miles Creagh (talk) 21:33, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
Sorry for the delay: real life intruded. It was a very long time ago, and I have tried, but failed, to recall where the discussion took place or where it is now archived. However, I do clearly recall it, as do others. I suggest that you could just add relevant sources to the dicussion, below, and build on that there are other headings that could be used and sources added under those. I will add some of them to assist the discussion, but I do not wish to take any sides in this, because it needs someone to be able to take action if necessary (as I have just done) to prevent escalation and further disruption to the process. However, I want, most importantly, to help prevent editors from falling foul of the 1rr restrictions and other restrictions based on The Troubles arbitration, because it helps no one, least of all the aim of building a good encyclopedic entry here. Try to work together rather than against each other here.  DDStretch  (talk) 13:02, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
I've added in a link to the Northern Ireland flags issue article, while retaining the Ulster Banner. I think that makes for a good compromise, until this issue is settled. GoodDay (talk) 10:29, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
I've removed the flag and disputed 'sources' as there never was a consensus for it's addition in spite of a tag team effort to force it in. Mo ainm~Talk 11:11, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
Perhaps the word None with a linkage, should be placed in the blank square. There used to be one there. GoodDay (talk) 11:13, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
It's unfortunate that people are continuing to edit war before we have even begun to properly explore they way forward proposed by Ddstretch. Miles Creagh (talk) 13:44, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
Best to wait until all these disputes are resolved. Adding the Ulster Banner while discussions continue, is counter-productive. GoodDay (talk) 13:48, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
And the norm would be for the version before the dispute started to stand until a consensus to change it was agreed, not for an editor to insert what they they think is a 'good compromise'. ----Snowded TALK 05:03, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

It appears as though this Ulster Banner dispute is indeed heading towards possible Arbcom territory. A group of individuals appear determined to keep re-adding that flag into the Northern Ireland entry, whil discussions are ongoing. GoodDay (talk) 12:24, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

I deplore the actions of Cauleyflower here. This editor has been involved in constantly re-adding sources before. It is indeed a convention that when discussing contentious issues, it is best not to keep on re-adding the contentious matter to the article (especially when the sources are also added by the same editor to a possible discussion here).

It is also the accepted course of action to restore the article to the condition before the disputes began. I was called away too early to do this myself, but I see it was done by others. However, it seems that some people cannot restrain themselves and are continuing to act in a potentially inflammatory manner. Consequently, I will restore the article to the relevant condition it was before this current dispute started, and then totally protect it for a period of one month. This is to prevent further disruption to the process of trying to reach a consensus here by various tactics on all sides.

Come on people, we should be able to behave better than this! Rather than using up energy in trying to get around any restrictions there may be, engage in the process of finding sources, listing then here, and then discussing them here. The correct way forward is to consider all the relaible sources that can be identified for either position, and then weigh them up, rather than engage in a continual series of edit and reversions. I intend this to apply to both sides in this dispute!  DDStretch  (talk) 12:48, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

And I deplore the actions of DDStretch and personally attacking me again. All I was doing was adding a source in the normal way. There never was consensus that there was "no" flag for Northern Ireland so to lock the article to that position is ridiculous -- this is what is "contentious". It seems you are abusing your position as admin to keep the article to your preferred position. If the article were to be neutral then all the flags should be removed, as this article doesn't simply relate to Northern Ireland but how all 4 subnational flags are used together, and none of the subnational flags are "official" if defined as "in current use by the original armiger", as seems to be the case here as used against Northern Ireland.Cauleyflower (talk) 14:24, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
It's best that the article is locked up in the "None" position for Northern Ireland. Best that the UB isn't added, while disputes are ongoing. GoodDay (talk) 14:27, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
May I add that this has been discussed to death already on Talk:Flag_of_Northern_Ireland and there was no consensus there that there is "no" flag for Northern Ireland. Repeating that here seems futile, and as I see it the only neutral position is to delete the flags column. Cauleyflower (talk) 14:37, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
If you can get all the others to agree to that? then fine. GoodDay (talk) 14:40, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Cauleyflower: (a) That was a different article, not this one. If you want us to consider the reliable sources named in the other article, include them here, because it is obvious that others (including paradoxically, yourself, see later, do not agree) (b) If you think the sensible option is to delete the flags column, why did you not suggest that, instead of adding contentious material here? (c) Your actions were arguably disruptive and others might have been tempted to take more action than I did in preventing you do it again and just telling yopu off a bit. (d) I did not intend anything to be a threat, but I was warning you what the consequences of your actions might be. I suggest instead of reacting badly, you take the time to work constructively here by acting consistently and adding relaible sources OR by arguing that the flags should be deleted, not by saying the flags whould be deleted at the same time as adding contentious material! Remember, that I have not taken action which I could be arguably be justified in taking against you or anyone else so far. I am doing that because I think it is better to try to get you all to work collaborately and together instead of disruptively and against. However, if things get worse, may be we will be forced to go along the harder route.  DDStretch  (talk) 15:20, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

I don't understand why you are making such a big fuss, describing as "disruptive" a rather simple edit which added a valuable source, especially when Wikipedia keeps an excellent history, yet not reprimanding those who merely revert to a version with absolutely no consensus. There is no contradiction in my position -- I don't actually agree with deleting the flags column, rather would accept that only temporarily for sake of discussion if an admin is going to lock down the page. I would hope to see more balanced actions from admins in the future and hope to engage civilly. Cauleyflower (talk) 16:39, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
I don't intend to prolong this further. There was a discussion a while ago that seemed to settle the issue that there was no official Northern Ireland flag. I make no comment about my own opinion on the matter. That a number of editors disagree with it does not in itself constitute no consensus, since a consensus does not imply uniformity of agreement. The recent spate of adding and then reverting very quickly material about the flag warrants a discussion, not an edit war. After the discussion, it may be that people agree there is no consensus, or, rather more importantly, that there is a consensus for changing the article with respect to the flags displayed or not. You are being disingenous to describe what you did as "a rather simple edit" when you are fully aware of the dispute that you are part of. It is customary to fix the article to a relevant position it was in before the BRD cycle became disrupted. I have done that. Please consider expending your efforts more to adding to the list of reliable sources in the relevant sections on this talk page - an action which I see you have not done so far on here.  DDStretch  (talk) 16:57, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
The article incorrectly states there is "no" flag, not "no official flag"; though both statements are incorrect as "official" is a vague open-ended statement which ignores official use by local government, in some legislation (registered designs act), at royal events, during the Commonwealth Games, by FIFA etc. I am not being disingenuous at all - I added an excellent source as Snowded said he would be "cool" with a post-2000 source showing the flag - if no-one edits boldly then nothing changes and the encyclopaedia doesn't get more accurate. The source took quite some time and effort on my part to physically acquire and add but took no time or effort for you to revert. Don't worry, I will now follow your protocol and add to the list in due course (it will take time to collate), but please remember that just because you are a wordy admin doesn't mean protocol must be exactly as you dictate Cauleyflower (talk) 20:05, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
It is not in dispute that some sports use the flag so not sure the benefit of adding them here also because the flag is named the Flag of Northern Ireland just because a source calls it that doesn't infer that the source is saying that it is an official flag. Mo ainm~Talk 22:15, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
It is in dispute. The article states "none" and censors completely which is not true nor fair. A flag doesn't have to be universally "official" to be displayed either. Cauleyflower (talk) 22:58, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
Nobody has disputed that it is used in some sports, but trying to use it as an official flag is what the dispute is about. Mo ainm~Talk 23:01, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
What do you mean by "official" - by whom, and why is that a pre-requisite? Cauleyflower (talk) 23:10, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
What the sources say "holds no official status", "The official flag of the province is the Union Jack", " The official flag of Northern Ireland is the Union Flag". need I go on? Mo ainm~Talk 23:21, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
The RfC on this very question over at Talk:Flag of Northern Ireland just closed with a finding[22] of "no consensus" on a definition of "official". Looks like we'll have to go with common use, for which there is ample precedent on Wikipedia - including, so I am given to understand, the Derry/Londonderry naming dispute. Miles Creagh (talk) 05:13, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
No, the RfC was on the insertion of a specific phrase saying it was not official at the start of the article, it was not an RfC to say that it should represent Northern Ireland. If the same editors were involved that question would also end up as no-consensus ----Snowded TALK 05:21, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

No, you're getting your RfC's confused. I mean GoodDay's general one on whether the flag is "official", which has now closed with a finding of "no consensus" on a definition of "official". Naturally. (How are you feeling about your prior contention that 2000 was somehow a key year in all this, btw?) Miles Creagh (talk) 05:26, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

GoodDay closed his own Rfc as irrelevant as he saw no consensus on the definition of official and there was little participation as it was seen as irrelevant. Neither of the RfC 'closures' support any change from the long standing position. The process below may .... ----Snowded TALK 06:23, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
Right, so no consensus on the definition of "official", as one might expect. There seemed to be be pretty good participation in the RfC, however, with Asarlaí posting his list of sources, which you subsequently cut-and-pasted here below. And are you perhaps a little reluctant to address your previous contention about "post-2000" sources being key here in light of the 2003 Alfred Znamierowski reference book that pictures the Northern Ireland flag alongside the flags of the other countries of the UK and identifies it as the "National flag" of NI? Miles Creagh (talk) 15:12, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
Nol GoodDay closed his own RfC saying it was irrelevant, it does not follow that we can't resolve the official question using the RS notice board or other areas to provide an independent view of the validity of the sources. Those need to be listed below then we go through them to determine which are valid, then look at issues of weight. I assume Ddstretch will initiate that ----Snowded TALK 06:46, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

I thought it would be a good idea to not move onto any further step until people have been given a good chance to search out and find more sources to support one or more of the positions that you all need to think about. I suggest you all think if there are other alternatives that different sources support, or even extra sources that openly state that something does not apply, and add them to the lists, below, creating new headings if you feel it necessary. I don't think there is anything good about finishing this step prematurely, and this is to avoid anyone feeling things were rushed. I seem to recall that the "countries" issue had a search phase that lasted well over two weeks (which explains why the sources found were quite comprehensive). If people are happy, I can initiate the next step. I am trying hard to not affect any potential outcome here, which is why I have kept my fingers off the keyboard as far as possible just now.  DDStretch  (talk) 10:32, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Yes. agreed. The more sources we can bring to the table, the better. Miles Creagh (talk) 14:26, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
Agree with that. I suspect that we will need some review of the question and the sources. For example the previous referral to the RS notice board invalidated one of the sources here but there was no agreement to that and edit warring continued to include the material. There are questions are as to what is evidence for the use to represent Northern Ireland as a whole (not just sports), what constitutes original research using direct sources etc. etc. It might be an idea to start with an independent review ----Snowded TALK 06:57, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
I had a look at the recent referral to the RS noticeboard. It didn't invalidate anything. These things need to be judged over a much wider arena. The question needs to be put correctly "Is this video evidence that the Ulster flag was used recently at a Royal occasion as part of a set of four flags including the English, Scottish, and Welsh flags?" No more is needed. Keep the question simple. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 10:42, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
Yes, in fact there was an agreement made at RS noticeboard on a specific use and form of words the video could support. I think an independent review with an agreed question and terms of reference would be fine, and ultimately probably necessary, but I suspect we will need do the heavy lifting here first, thoroughly evaluating and discussing each and every source, in order to agree the terms. Miles Creagh (talk) 14:00, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

List of Sources

In support of the prior position in which there is no flag shown for Northern Ireland

  • The Flag Institute: "The Ulster flag is different from the Ulster Banner, which was the former flag of Northern Ireland but now holds no official status".
  • The Complete Guide to National Symbols and Emblems, Greenwood Publishing, 2009, p.486: "The official flag of the province is the Union Jack. There is no official national flag of Northern Ireland, following the Northern Ireland Constitution Act of 1973, nor any unofficial flag universally accepted in Northern Ireland".
  • Contemporary Britain, Palgrave Macmillan, 2012, p.53: "The old flag of Northern Ireland – a red hand inside a white star on a red cross – has strong connections with the Protestant community, and is no longer official but is still occasionally flown. The official flag of Northern Ireland is the Union Flag".
  • Clashing Symbols?: A Report on the Use of Flags, Anthems and Other National Symbols in Northern Ireland, Queen's University Belfast, 1994. pp.150–151: "In December 1986 the Northern Ireland Office produced an Explanatory Document on the [Flags and Emblems Act], which stated: [...] "Repeal of the Act would make no change whatsoever to the position that the Union flag is the official flag of Northern Ireland as it is of the United Kingdom as a whole".
  • Flag, Nation and Symbolism in Europe and America, Routledge, 2007: "This Ulster flag was abandoned in 1973 when the Belfast Stormont parliament was dissolved, and, since then, the Union Jack has been the only official flag in Northern Ireland".
  • Flags: Towards a New Understanding, Queen's University Belfast, 2016, p.6: "following the Northern Ireland Constitution Act of 1973, the Ulster Banner ceased to have any official standing, but there followed a huge increase in its unofficial use as a symbol of loyalism".
  • Sport Northern Ireland, Promoting Fair Play in Sport, p.9: "Many existing flags have no official status and this includes the former Northern Ireland ‘flag’ (or flag of the Executive Committee of the Privy Council of Northern Ireland or Ulster Banner)".
  • Peter Hain, Secretary of State for Northern Ireland: "The Ulster flag and the Cross of St. Patrick have no official status and under the Flags Regulations are not permitted to be flown from Government Buildings".[23]
Comment:The Flags Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2000 Act in discussion does not actually mention the Ulster Flag or Cross of St. Patrick, rather simply defines the designated days on which the Union Flag must be flown on 7 specific government buildings [24]. The Northern Ireland/Ulster flag is permitted to be flown on other buildings, as is done officially by local government. Jonto (talk) 23:58, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Lord Davies of Oldham, a British government member of the House of Lords: "The union flag is the only official flag that represents Northern Ireland".[25]
  • Lord Kilclooney, a Unionist member of the House of Lords and of the British parliament's Flags and Heraldry Committee: "However, whilst England (St George's Cross) Scotland (St Andrew's Cross) and Wales (The Dragon) have individual regional flags, the Flags Institute in London confirms that Northern Ireland has no official regional flag".[26]
  • Fraser Agnew, a Unionist member of the Northern Ireland Assembly: "The Ulster flag [...] was a civil flag for Northern Ireland, but its official status was abolished when the Northern Ireland Parliament was closed down in 1973. Thereafter, the Union flag was made the official flag in Northern Ireland. That is a fact".[27]
  • The Northern Ireland Foundation: "It was the official flag of Northern Ireland from then until the Northern Ireland government was suspended in 1972, and has had no official standing since that time".
  • The BBC: "But what would you say if we told you that the flag commonly associated with Northern Ireland, has no official status?".
  • UTV: "Northern Ireland does not currently have its own official flag, and the Union flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the only flag used by government".
  • Flags of the World: "The Union Jack is the only official flag of Northern Ireland".

In support of the flags of England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales to all be displayed together

Sources supporting the display of all 4 flags together
  • Scan of quoted pages Smith, Whitney, Flags and Arms Across The World, p226 - Features the flags of the UK subdivisions including the Ulster Flag to represent Northern Ireland
  • Scan of quoted pages Znamierowski, Alfred (2003). Illustrated Book of Flags: The Complete Encyclopedia of International Flags, Banners, Standards and Ensigns. London: Southwater / Anness Publishing Ltd. pp. 148–149. ISBN 978-1842158814. "Presented here are the flags of the four parts of the United Kingdom (England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland)... England, National Flag, The red cross of St George on a white field... a white saltire of St Andrew has been the Scottish national symbol (since the 15th century on a blue field)... Wales, National Flag, The red dragon (Y Ddraig Goch)... white and green were the livery colours of the Welsh Prince LLewellyn... Northern Ireland, National Flag, The star representing the six counties is ensigned with the royal crown and charged with the red hand of Ulster."
Comment: I received today the updated & revised 2010 edition of the Znamierowski book and I can confirm that it has the exact same content: the Northern Ireland flag is pictured, and identified as the "National Flag" of Northern Ireland, on the same page (149) and in the same terms as the Flags of England, Scotland and Wales. Miles Creagh (talk) 15:39, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
Northern Ireland-specific sources
Sources on UK protocol and "officialdom" in general
  • BBC - recognition of the Union Jack "And while today, there's no question that the union jack is the national flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, it's got there by default rather than political will. Sort of enshrined. No act of Parliament enshrines it as such - most countries have flag acts that set out, to the last detail, rules about their national flags."
  • Heady, Sue (October 2001). Pocket Guide to Flags. Sterling Publishing. ISBN 978-1856485944. The United Kingdom differs from most other countries in that she has no official national flag.
  • The Flag Institute "The Union Flag is a royal banner and despite its fame and fortune no government statute or other constitutional instrument has ever declared it to be the national flag of the United Kingdom. Apart from the two parliamentary answers quoted above from Hansard, the flag has never formally been given to the people. It is the de facto national flag but not de jure. Consequently there is no single authority responsible for its governance or the protocol surrounding it, nor even for its design, proportions and colours".
Double standards concerning statuses of England, Scotland, and Wales flags

This is not about whether the flag is official or not

The flag is in common usage to uniquely identify Northern Ireland. The Commonwealth games are an important example. Having studied this dispute, my opinion is that it has been caused by a group who are working together to form a consensus for it not to be used on Wikipedia to represent Northern Ireland, even though opposition to it within Northern Ireland only comes from a minority. But if it can be used at the Commonwealth Games and at Royal events, and generally throughout the media, then it can be used on Wikipedia too. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 10:59, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Indeed, there is simply no consensus on what "official" means in this context, and the 1953 statement by the Minister for Home Affairs in the Government of Northern Ireland on the occasion that the banner was first flown above Stormont stressed even back then that the Union flag was the "official" flag, but went on to suggest that the banner could be used by those who wished to have a flag to represent NI particularly. The Government of Northern Ireland and the Stormont parliament always used the banner rather sparingly. It is really only-post 1972 that it has come into its own as the Northern Ireland flag, through widespread common and popular use, much like the St George's Cross has in England post-1996. Of particular relevance to this article, which is after all about the four Countries of the UK, it seems very clear from the sources above that in contexts in which all four countries are represented by flags, England is most commonly represented by the St George's Cross, Northern Ireland most commonly by the Ulster banner, Scotland most commonly by the St Andrew's Saltire and Wales most commonly by the Red Dragon Goch. Miles Creagh (talk) 15:25, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
Exactly right, Miles. I'd add that I haven't seen a single source that supports the "bare flagpole" approach taken in the article at it stands. The Clyde Valley (talk) 16:49, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
Quite. It may be the fairest, simplest solution would be to add the Northen Ireland flag icon to the table of flags with a link to, or a footnote referencing, the Northern Ireland Flags Issue, as I see was suggested by User:GoodDay above. Miles Creagh (talk) 19:35, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
I would only accept a footnote if England also had to have a footnote (please see the "double standards" section above and try to add more sources for it). It would also have to be a footnote with a superscript and not obtrusive/disruptive text within the flag icon section itself. Additionally the Union Jack would need a footnote too given the sources stating no official flag for the UKJonto (talk) 23:34, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
Yes, I agree a footnote with superscript would be the way to go, if we do go the footnote route. Miles Creagh (talk) 23:51, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
Is there some kind of arbitration body that deals with situations in which evidence is denied where it is plain to all uninvolved parties that the evidence is good? I was thinking specifically about the video which showed the Ulster flag being used at the Royal event. That amounted to unequivocal evidence that the flag was used at that event, and nobody can say otherwise and keep a straight face. So why was this evidence rejected? It is matters like this which need to be investigated and it's best to stick to one specific example. I've just had a look at the reliable sources noticeboard and I see that only two uninvolved editors appeared and that one of them accepted the video as evidence of what was observed in the video, which is all that the video was being used to claim. This issue in particular needs to be raised again as a matter of principle, because once it reaches the stage that they are denying what we can all see with our own eyes, then it amounts to misbehavior. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 20:39, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
Yes, in fact we have already seen a request for Arbitration[30] made in this matter, but it didn't seem to find any willing, uninvolved takers. I expect potential arbitrators are just wary of involvement in this issue, which has already been through an extensive mediation [31][32] process at least once, some years ago, as far as I can tell without reaching consensus. That said, we do seem to have more and better sources to work from now than then, due to the process initiated by Ddstretch above, and I suggest we give it time to see if we can resolve this here. Just bear in mind there's no rush and no deadline. Arbitration is always an option down the line, assuming we can find an arbitrator with the will and a spare, oh, couple of months out of their life to devote to wading through this particular pile o' shite! Miles Creagh (talk) 22:11, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Post protection

Best that a solution is found before the protection expires on June 28. Otherwise, any further changes to the article will likely result in blocks, I'm guessing. GoodDay (talk) 13:44, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

GoodDay. What exactly is your role in all of this? Do you have a point of view yourself? If a solution isn't found by 28th June, will that be good for those who oppose using the flag? And if so, why should that be? Centuryofconfusion (talk) 18:23, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
Settle the dispute on the talkpage first, before making further changes. GoodDay (talk) 18:38, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
Says who? Where is all this coming from and who's side are you on? Centuryofconfusion (talk) 19:30, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
It's up to you, if you want to risk being blocked by an administrator. GoodDay (talk) 00:19, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

The issue of the Northern Ireland flag comes under the restrictions imposed by the Arbitration committee concerning The Troubles, and you can read about the actions allowed in the box at the top of this page. I initiated the process which most editors seem to be playing a part in now to try to resolve the situation. I am trying to encourage you all to do this so that editors need not be penalized by having action taken against them. So, one could say that this is coming from me, and that I have the right and power to do this, no matter what some have wrote about on here.

Now, I don't want to wave a big stick about this, because I think people just have enthusiastic and somewhat strong, passionate views about this matter. But I think it is worth suggesting to people strongly, to stop questioning each other's motives and so on, because this is doing exactly what we should NOT do on wikipedia. Instead, we should comment on the content and not the editors. Bear in mind that The Troubles arbitration restrictions apply to all aspects of behaviour, not just edit-warring. There does, however, come a point at which discretionary actions become necessary. Do not put me to the test. And, just in case people wonder, this "warning", if you will, applies to anyone, on any supposed "side" of the dispute.

I encourage all editors to stop wasting time speculating about people's motives, and try their best to supply overwhelmingly solid and good reliable sources that support the position they think should be adopted, or, better still, try to find good-quality reliable sources arguing for any of the options under discussion, so that a consensus can emerge, no matter what their initial preferred outcome would be (which I consider would be more consistent with wikipedia's policies and ideal attitudes to encyclopedia writing.)  DDStretch  (talk) 00:34, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

DDStretch, Thank you for the clarification. I had genuinely come to believe that all the threats about blocks were only being directed at those editors who were in favour of using the Ulster flag. My attention came to this dispute when I noticed somewhere (can't remember where) that it said that Northern Ireland has no flag. I knew this to be untrue and that led me to the Northern Ireland flag page. Meanwhile I think I have narrowed down the parameters of the dispute. The officialdom issue is a red herring. The issue is that those opposed to the flag have not presented any evidence of the degree of opposition and that they are playing this opposition up, as we all know that opposition only comes from a minority. And so from now on, I will concentrate on sources or lack of sources as the case may be. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 11:26, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Compromise

In case no solution is reached, after all the sources have been analyzed. I'd recommend that we use the Ulster Banner & a note underneath it, explaining that there's a current dispute over its usage. The version I put in, many days ago, should suffice as (at least) a temporary edit, until a final decision is reached. Something to stop future edit spats, after the protection expires. GoodDay (talk) 16:25, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that would be a workable compromise. The current position of "none" is simply not verified by sources and doesn't meet WP:NPOV standards. Miles Creagh (talk) 17:13, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
I could also support GoodDay's compromise. The Clyde Valley (talk) 17:22, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
Don't see how that is a compromise, I'm sure the 2 editors who have supported this wouldn't agree if I say a compromise along the lines of, NI doesn't have an official flag leave it blank and put a note saying it is disputed. Mo ainm~Talk 09:02, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
Problem is, there don't appear to be any reliable sources that, when picturing flags of the four countries of the UK, show the St George's Cross for England, a blank field or "None" for NI, the Saltire for Scotland and the Red Dragon for Wales. The sources always represent NI with a flag, most commonly by far the Ulster Banner. We've seen there's no consensus on what "official" means when it comes to British vexillology, and you can't define it yourself, so the clear Wikipedian move here is go to with common use, as verified by the preponderance of sources. Miles Creagh (talk) 13:45, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
I think you will find as we go through the process that we can define what is not official. You still haven't produced evidence for government sanctions against the use of the other three country flags while they exist for the UB. Common use interpretation from primary sources is not permitted in wikipedia per WP:RS. We are in a mediated process now so lets follow it, and pull in third party editors as needed ----Snowded TALK 13:52, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
Can someone point me to the mediation process, please? — Jon C.ॐ 16:07, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
What's interesting is that, per WP:RS the relatively short list of sources above in support of excluding the NI flag seems heavier on primary sources than the rather longer list of sources supporting inclusion. And if you've provided evidence of "government sanctions against the use" of the NI flag, I must have missed it. (Presumably the Household Cavalry should be expecting to be sanctioned soon? I'm sure they're quaking in their impeccably shined boots!) But we'll be moving on to the evaluation of sources, soon enough, as you say. Should be fun. Miles Creagh (talk) 16:21, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
There is no "sanction" against the Northern Ireland flag. It flies today on local government buildings, and was used at the Queen's birthday celebrations. There is overwhelming evidence of common use from both primary and secondary sources.IrishBriton (talk) 19:20, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
You really badly need to read WP:RS and the response to the last time you tried that sort of argument. Entertainment events are not really subject to orders in parliament (I assume you are not denying those) so I think the Household Cavalry have no need to quote in any footwear. Not sure what value that comment really adds to the debate but it probably is a 'mostly harmless' comment. ----Snowded TALK 18:59, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
It adds the point that there is no such "sanction". There is no "order of parliament" either, merely a law stating the designated days on which the Union Flag is to be displayed on 7 buildings (Flags Regulations 2000). IrishBriton (talk) 19:20, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
Well, we have agreed at the RS noticeboard that the ITV source supports the simple observation that the Ulster Banner was flown from horseback at The Queen's 90th Birthday Celebration by the Household Cavalary, alongside the Flags of England, Scotland and Wales, and you and I, Snowded, have collaborated to insert that form of words, sourced to the ITV video and the official programme of the event published by Regal Press, into the Flag of Northern Ireland article. I make no wider claim than that it is one of many sources that tend to demonstrate that, in "four countries" contexts (such as we have here), when each country is represented by a flag, each country is indeed represented by its respective common flag. In the case of Northern Ireland, that means preponderantly by the Ulster Banner, and never - ever - by "none". Now, I'm not sure what orders in parliament you have in mind, but if you are asking me if I deny the existence of orders in parliament imposing "government sanctions against the use" of the NI flag, then the answer is yes, I certainly do. The burden of proof for the existence of such sanctions is all yours. Have at it! Miles Creagh (talk) 19:35, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
(Sigh), lets let the process work out. When Ddkstretch is ready we can start the evaluation and identify the issues then bring in third party editors who are not largely single purpose accounts ----Snowded TALK 19:29, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
Comment on content, not on editors, please. Miles Creagh (talk) 19:35, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
SPAs are a significant concern on multiple wikipedia articles, linked to meat puppetry. If the mediation process does not work and this ends up at Arbcom it will be an issue ----Snowded TALK 19:47, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
I would oppose adding a statement that there is a "dispute" - this specific dispute exists only in the realm of Wikipedia - the only arguable dispute in reality was Northern Ireland itself (though I would argue that is no longer a case to be made for this considering the signatories to international treaties etc., if even there ever was a case that it was in dispute at all considering demographics). Concerning the flag, there is only one distinct flag of Northern Ireland, and widely acknowledged as such. The Wikipedia dispute on the flag concerns status and who uses and does not use each flag. Better would be to simply state the anomalous facts on flag usage in a footnote on each. i.e. on UK, England, NI (and Wales????) have a footnote stating the "Flags not defined in law", and on Northern Ireland an additional one stating "Regional flag not flown by current Northern Ireland Assembly" - the latter is the only real anomaly concerning the Northern Ireland flag, and it is due to the obscure non-majoritarian system in the Assembly (under which agreement on anything would be difficult if such a system were used anywhere in the world). The lack of central government usage of what is a regional flag is not really an anomaly of note, neither is the fact that people who don't want Northern Ireland itself to exist (Irish Nationalists/Republicans) don't fly its flag. IrishBriton (talk) 19:20, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Mo ainm's mentioned option - No flag, with a dispute tag - is also acceptable, IMHO. However, it doesn't appear as though either proposal (temporary or not) will be adopted to this article :( GoodDay (talk) 16:52, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

Can you point to a single example from the sources where, in a "Four Countries" context, England is represented by the St George's Cross, Northern Ireland by "no flag", Scotland by the St Andrew's Saltire and Wales by the Red Dragon? Because here [33] are [34] examples [35] of [36] use [37] in which all four[38] countries are represented by their respective common flags. Miles Creagh (talk) 17:37, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

""No one is disputing use of the flag. Let the process run and let Ddkstretch run it. We are at the reference stage at the moment, then we get to evaluation and also determination of what the question is (or are) ----Snowded TALK 18:26, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

I thought you were disputing the use of the flag in the article? Miles Creagh (talk) 18:38, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
In this article yes as while it is used it within Britain for limited purposes it no longer represents the country. The fact that it is used in the country is not disputed ----Snowded TALK 20:00, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
Except it is used to represent the country, quite explicitly and in the same manner as the flags of the other three countries, in the sources posted above. Miles Creagh (talk) 20:16, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
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