Talk:LGBT rights in Ukraine

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Spelling of 'Kharkiv'[edit]

I just editted the spelling from Kharkov to Kharkiv, since the article about the city is listed as "Kharkiv".--207.47.138.89 05:37, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agreeing with the existence of?[edit]

I copied this sentence here because I was wondering about the meaning:

Ukrainians in general are not very accepting of gays, with only 15% agreeing with the existence of same-sex couples.

Is the sentence trying to say that only 15% of Ukranians believe that same-sex couples exist, or that 85% think that same-sex couples should be legislated against, or that only 15% of Ukranians support something like gay marriage? -Seth Mahoney 23:38, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

--

I think it means 15% support the idea of same-sex couples. One thing in this article that intrigued me was the declaration that gays are exempt from military service. Do they ask this when draftees are inducted? Or do they get thrown out of the military when it's discovered they're gay? They used to do this in the Australian Army back in the 80's when they learned a soldier was gay, but I don't remember being asked if I was gay or not when I signed up.

The reason I ask is that it would be a swell way to dodge military service by "outing" yourself. Do you need to prove it to anyone or does the draft board take your word for it? Just curious. Peter1968 09:09, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A word from a Ukrainian gay.[edit]

I am glad the subject of gay rights in my country is discussed here. I'll ask a lawyer as for military exemtion for gays on the basis that homosexuality's still considered a mental disorder here (is it really?). I know it for a dact that Ukraine was the first Ex-Soviet state to have abolished the infamous criminal law article punishing ays through imprisonment in 1991 (which, ironically, was only applicable to gay men and not to gay women). Also, the current president Yuschenko never said a word to support gay Ukrainians, so I don't think he's any supportive.

Keep the discussion going!

Greetings from Ukraine —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chevere (talk • contribs) 12:57, 21 January 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Ah... one correction: Ukraine was the first UN-recognized post-Soviet state to legalize. Ukraine was beaten by 10 days by the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria, which literally burnt the constitution when it declared independence, and didn't re-illegalize homosexuality. Of course, that ended when Maskhadov thought he'd negotiate with the extremist Islamist conservatives around Udugov to try to achieve some sort of "national unity" (as if Udugov wasn't a foreign agent from the beginning...), and instead of a Chechen Republic suddenly we had an "Islamic Republic". Then it was legal again (de facto) for the Chechen Republic (in exile) after the Islamic Republic split into the Emirate and the secular Chechen Republic of Ichkeria. Buuut... Kadyrov, Russia's puppet instated Sharia in '08 now. --Yalens (talk) 22:45, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To whom it may concern: Wikipedia articles' talk pages are not for the general "discussions" of the articles' topic. Especially for a nonsense like references to Chechen wars. Wishes. Ukrained2012 (talk) 23:21, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So-o-o bad([edit]

Ladies and gentlemen, the sources for this article are certainly bad. But not as bad as their correct attribution to the particular claims in the text. Hope those sources do not really state that ethnic Ukrainian gays are undertolerated by the Ukrainian society). Needs a lot of work. Ukrained2012 (talk) 23:21, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

People, I wouldn't call one of country's best, and English-speaking, lawyers an "open gay" unless you have firm RS-citations. He may simply sue Jimbo out of budget( Ukrained2012 (talk) 23:39, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Some secs have no descriptions at all, just mere labelling (tagged those with POV). Remember: facts>lulz. Ukrained2012 (talk) 23:55, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well controversial Ukrainian subjects who are not associated with greatness/national pride always get less attention from editors of Wikipedia; hence Ivan Mazepa's Wiki-article is in a good state and this one and Jews in Ukraine look like crap... (At times I felt like the only one editing the later 2 was I...) — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 15:32, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Did do some fixing up the last hours; but I am a bit fed up doing that now and article still needs lots of work... I did notice that before I fixed the article up the situation of homosexuals in Ukraine was made to look better then it is in reality (in other words before 11 October 2013‎ this Wiki-article did nor reflected reality). — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 18:55, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Surogacy for gay couples and IVF for lesbian couples[edit]

Can anyone confirm that this is true? It says both are legal, but how??? If same-sex couples are not permitted to adopt, surely gay couples don't have access to surrogacy. And as for lesbian couples...well if a single women has an access to IVF that is fine, but that doesn't mean a lesbian couple can do the same. For lesbian couples to have access to IVF would mean that lesbian couples are recognised by law, and in Ukraine they are not. Just because one women who lives with another women can do it doesn't mean they will both be recgnised as parents. 11Raccoon1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 11raccoon1 (talk • contribs) 12:55, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Relevance; Ukraine is not Russia[edit]

In the opening paragraph (introduction), last line. This is a random statistic that is not relevant. We are talking about Ukraine, not Russia. If we want to include Ukraine's neighbours as a comparison, then include ALL or at least a sizeable representation of them. "Russia, with 25%, had the lowest percent of support. [4]"

This is a stand-alone statistic that looks like an after-thought and does not make sense.


142.244.5.249 (talk) 01:12, 25 March 2015 (UTC)Geno[reply]

Transgender rights[edit]

You also have to visit it "usually placed in the same wards with patients who are mentally Ill" place if you want to get a driver's license simply because it is a place of work of doctors psychiatrists. So I think that this is "usually placed in the same wards with patients who are mentally Ill" unnecessary clarification — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.150.122.66 (talk) 17:01, 28 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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I have just added archive links to 2 external links on LGBT rights in Ukraine. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

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Checked Confirmed as correct. Thank you, Cyberbot II. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:27, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

the link for reference 35 links to live cam pornn: "Ukraine has lifted the ban on blood donation for homosexuals | Gay News Europe | Gay news, entertainment, celebrities, family and stories". the hyper link is porn. Someone should probably change that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:569:7BB4:E500:F831:192:7E17:D8B2 (talk) 01:23, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

While I did not see any porn on the reference you noted, the link is dead and the web address is for sale on GoDaddy. I have added an Wayback Machine archive link to the reference. Wikipedialuva (talk) 01:45, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

On-going anti-LGBTQ purges and censorship in the List of people from Ukraine[edit]

A clique of editors seem to be implementing a purge of any mentionings of notable LGBTQ Ukrainians and LGBTQ activism in Ukraine.

In particular, the corresponding section in the List of people from Ukraine listing notable LGBTQ Ukrainians and Ukrainian LGBTQ activists with Wikipedia pages, has been first censored and then completely purged by this clique of editors, under the obviously false pretext of such entries in the list being "unecyclopedic"(!).

Please review the following revision history, between July 27 and July 29, 2020 , https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_people_from_Ukraine&action=history .

The purged list of notable LGBTQ Ukrainians and Ukrainian LGBTQ activists is as follows:

LGBTQ Ukrainians, pro-European and pro-Western LGBTQ Ukrainian activists

Please help to monitor and report the disruptive anti-LGBTQ editors and please help to edit List of people from Ukraine so that it objectively reflects the role of the LGBTQ people in the past, current and future Ukrainian politics, life, arts and science!— Preceding unsigned comment added by Special:Contributions/2601:646:8500:2DD0:D429:B0BF:9012:558F) 1 August 2020

People who want yo be actual helpful can also update the Wikipedia page List of LGBT events with the pride parades and rallies that are now annually happening Ukraine's biggest cities since about 2019. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 18:04, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Hinchey got to Washington via the Thruway". recordonline.com. Retrieved 2016-01-19.[permanent dead link]

Pride parades and rallies in Ukraine now seem to be a regular thing.... Should all the post 2019 Pride parades be listed in this article?[edit]

Following the news in Ukraine and/or being a reader of LGBT rights in Ukraine#Pride parades and rallies you could have noticed that pride parades and rallies are now annually happening Ukraine's biggest cities since about 2019. The last one being held in Zaporizhia a few days ago. My question is if its still worth mentioning all of them in this Wikipedia article or should they only be listed at the Wikipedia page List of LGBT events? — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 18:02, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

commercial surrogacy in Ukraine[edit]

according to my Ukrainian attorney, commercial surrogacy in Ukraine is legal for heterosexual married couples. might go looking for a public source and then edit the table. 63.81.44.34 (talk) 22:53, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Summary Style - Edit War Resolution Discussion[edit]

WIKIPedia Summary Style. Disagreement - Different readers want varying amounts of detail, and this style permits them to choose how much they are exposed to. Some readers need just a quick summary and are satisfied by the lead section; others seek a moderate amount of info, and will find the main article suitable to their needs; yet others want a lot of detail, and will be interested in reading the side articles. 142.189.112.124 (talk) 21:08, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion is ridiculous. Your "summary style" is not supported by any of the policy and you will not find a single other Wikipedia article that lists "key takeaways" in their article (unless supported by a source uses that term). It's not encyclopedic, end of story. If you don't stop wasting everyone's time with this discussion you'll end up blocked. Just drop it. WPscatter t/c 03:36, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Edit history involved
Edit History
curprev 20:47, 9 June 2023‎ Ponyo talk contribs‎ 83,004 bytes −683‎ Undid revision 1159360684 by 142.189.112.124 (talk) if you want this presented in the lead in this fashion, you need consensus undo Tag: Undo
curprev 20:45, 9 June 2023‎ 142.189.112.124 talk‎ 83,687 bytes +683‎ Undid revision 1159359565 by Ponyo (talk) Please review Wikipedia Summary Style - Different readers want varying amounts of detail, and this style permits them to choose how much they are exposed to. Some readers need just a quick summary and are satisfied by the lead section; others seek a moderate amount of info, and will find the main article suitable to their needs; yet others want a lot of detail, and will be interested in reading the side undo Tags: Undo Reverted
curprev 20:38, 9 June 2023‎ Ponyo talk contribs‎ 83,004 bytes −683‎ Undid revision 1159357463 by 142.189.112.124 (talk) the article is summarised using prose in the lead - we do not use "key points" in an encyclopedia article undo Tags: Undo Reverted
curprev 20:24, 9 June 2023‎ 142.189.112.124 talk‎ 83,687 bytes +683‎ Undid revision 1159349364 by Wpscatter (talk) Reviewed commentary. I applied the concepts of Summary Main Page to avoid excessive page length. undo Tags: Undo Reverted
curprev 19:31, 9 June 2023‎ Wpscatter talk contribs‎ 83,004 bytes −683‎ Reverting edit(s) by 142.189.112.124 (talk) to rev. 1159211762 by Wpscatter: These things are already covered in the article. "5 Key Takeaways" is not encyclopedic. Feel free to incorporate the sources into the appropriate places in the article, though. (UV 0.1.4) undo Tags: Ultraviolet Undo Reverted
curprev 16:35, 9 June 2023‎ 142.189.112.124 talk‎ 83,687 bytes +683‎ Created a 5 key takeaways supported by the article on the current status of LGBTQ community to assist the casual reader. Please update as status change related to these 5 key status to monitor from a human rights defense perspective.. undo Tags: Reverted Visual edit: Switched
8 June 2023
curprev 23:59, 8 June 2023‎ Wpscatter talk contribs‎ 83,004 bytes −449‎ Reverting edit(s) by 142.189.112.124 (talk) to rev. 1159210917 by Pbritti: No reliable source (UV 0.1.4) undo Tags: Ultraviolet Undo
curprev 23:59, 8 June 2023‎ 142.189.112.124 talk‎ 83,453 bytes +449‎ Had to reinsert 5 Key Human Rights Watcher takeaways - Public Interest Content DO NOT REMOVE undo Tag: Reverted
curprev 23:51, 8 June 2023‎ Pbritti talk contribs‎ 83,004 bytes −217‎ Wikipedia isn't a reliable source undo
curprev 22:07, 8 June 2023‎ 2a00:23c6:292d:cc01:8075:936d:e545:1944 talk‎ 83,221 bytes −1‎ Fixed formatting. undo Tags: Visual edit Mobile edit Mobile web edit
curprev 22:06, 8 June 2023‎ 2a00:23c6:292d:cc01:8075:936d:e545:1944 talk‎ 83,222 bytes −449‎ Removed addition that did not fit with the rest of the article. It was a list of 'five key takeaways' randomly placed at the top of the article. undo Tags: Visual edit Mobile edit Mobile web edit
curprev 16:24, 8 June 2023‎ Arjayay talk contribs‎ m 83,671 bytes −4‎ Duplicate word removed undo
curprev 14:26, 8 June 2023‎ 142.189.112.124 talk‎ 83,675 bytes +216‎ added context to the global controversy of neo-nazism in Ukraine and its ties to the Ukrainian Army Azov Brigade. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Brigade undo Tag: use of deprecated (unreliable) source
curprev 14:01, 8 June 2023‎ 142.189.112.124 talk‎ 83,459 bytes −272‎ changed wrong attribution from article to correct attribution. called for references in unsupported quotes and editorializations. Removed some editorializations which were unsupported or to which links were not valid. Edited some sentences to remove association between Human Rights protected groups and extremism where (unsupported, reference needed) undo
curprev 12:47, 8 June 2023‎ 184.147.108.166 talk‎ 83,731 bytes +446‎ Created a 5 key takeaways supported by the article on the current status of LGBTQ community to assist the casual reader. Please update as status change related to these 5 key status to monitor from a human rights defense perspective.. undo 142.189.112.124 (talk) 21:12, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The contents of a lead section are subject primarily to MOS:LEAD, not WP:SUMMARY. Declaring your addition has Public Interest Content does not mean we can add it to the article. Content should be referenced according to Wikipedia's reliable source policy with no original research. Your additions do not cite reliable sources (at least one of them cited Wikipedia, which is a big no-no. Additionally, material given in the lead should also exist in the body of the article. If you can't provide reliable sources to demonstrate that these are the salient points on LGBT rights in Ukraine, then that material doesn't belong in the lead. ~ Pbritti (talk) 21:38, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@PbrittiOn what basis have you determined that this source is unreliable. Please provide your full analysis. This article was edited perform Human Rights clarification edits to ensure human right articles on wikipedia are properly referenced. What specifically is it that you find objectionable about reference quality? 142.189.112.124 (talk) 21:51, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The source used was a European Union funded human rights organization that studies these specific issues. Rainbow Europe (rainbow-europe.org)
Comparing that to self research is astounding. This article is ruined. Substantial information has been edited out that was first created by other users. I simply corrected the attributions to the right groups in the articles. That lead to bias based deletions as the facts were not palatable. This type of activity destroys confidence. It causes donations to drop. 142.189.112.124 (talk) 04:45, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Pbritti does not need to provide a "full analysis" as to why your additions don't belong in the article. There is a clear consensus not to include them and I am quite certain that you will not convince anyone here that your edits should be restored in the format you added them in. The horse is dead, IP. WPscatter t/c 16:05, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
On June 8, 2023 142.189.112.124 began an editorial and verification pass on this article. Many references were verified and attributions corrected.
Consistent with the Wikipedia Summary Style 142.189.112.124 sought to restore edits by 184.147.108.166.
Later that day 2a00:23c6:292d:cc01:8075:936d:e545:1944 began an edit war with the content from 184.147.108.166.
Determining that Summary Style was being properly applied by 184.147.108.166, 142.189.112.124 reverted the edits consistent with the main page summary style to support different reader types.
Subsequently an apparent gang vandalism effort was mounted whereby poorly supported reverts were commenced to obscure and obfuscate the clear and non-biased status of LGTB rights in Ukraine created by 184.147.108.166. This effort included @Pbritti, @Wpscatter who inappropriately used the tag Ultraviolet, and finally @Ponyo.
142.189.112.124 defended the integrity of the Summary Style and the article from biased edits taking in to consideration the legitimate concerns raised along the way including improving the references.
Ponyo's edits which were inconsistent with the Summary style lead 142.189.112.124 exceeding the 3 reverts in 24 hour rule. 142.189.112.124 (talk) 21:42, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, neat, an accusation of vandalism! You don't have any evidence that your content being deleted was vandalism. Provide sources for it and we can move from there. ~ Pbritti (talk) 21:45, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Pbritti Your request for sources was already addressed. Please review the last revert by @Ponyo. Regarding "apparent gang vandalism". Repeatedly reverting the proper use of Wikipedia:Summary style is not inconsistent with vandalism. 142.189.112.124 (talk) 21:56, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) The inclusion of what are essentially bullet points in the lead is idiosyncratic and has been reverted by multiple editors. The onus is on the editor wishing to restore disputed content (i.e. you, regardless of the IP you are using) to get consensus for the change before you can restore it. Framing the reverts as "gang vandalism" will not get you anywhere.-- Ponyobons mots 22:05, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Ponyo, the MOS:LEAD specifically calls for the use of the Wikipedia:Summary style in the first line. I find your comment self defeating.
Regarding your comment about the use of bullet points being idiosyncratic, yes, wikipedia is currently trying to change the long verbose style used in the lead to a more summary style more consistent with bullet points and key takeaways. It is specifically intended objective to enhance readability of casual readers.
What specifically do you have a problem with in the content of 184.147.108.166? It is an accurate reflection of the current status of LGTB rights in Ukraine, non-biased, concise, and to the point. 142.189.112.124 (talk) 22:34, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
1.) you just repeated the same citation over and over in that last edit (not how that's done; look at other articles for examples of how to do that). 2.) This source, covers a vast amount of information about Ukrainian LGBT law and policy, yet you only pulled out a small amount of it and inserted it into the lead. That's not "summarizing", but rather original research. 3.) You don't know what vandalism is. Being reverted for inserting unsourced content with undue weight to specific points is not other people committing vandalism. If anything, the large number of people who disagree with you should indicate that perhaps you're not following the right policies and procedures here. ~ Pbritti (talk) 22:03, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Pbritti Please specifically address how the Rainbow Europe project which studies the rights specifically addressed in this article across Europe is not a reliable source. You must support your deletion, it is not my burden to prove your justification wrong, you must support the reason for your action in reverting.
Rainbow Europe brings together both the legal index of LGBTI equality based on our Rainbow Europe Map and an overview of the social climate for LGBTI people in each country based on our Annual Review of the Human Rights Situation of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex People.
Rainbow Europe ranks all 49 European countries on a scale between 0% (gross violations of human rights, discrimination) and 100% (respect of human rights, full equality). We rank the countries on the basis of laws and policies that have a direct impact on the LGBTI people’s human rights in under 7 categories: equality and non-discrimination; family; hate crime and hate speech; legal gender recognition; intersex bodily integrity; civil society space; and asylum.
Rainbow Europe provides insights into the political and social developments in each European country, along with a feeling of what everyday life for LGBTI people is like beyond the laws and policies. Rainbow Europe makes it easier to keep up to date with the latest developments in European LGBTI rights.
It is a free online collection of all the data that lies behind the colourful Rainbow Europe Map, accessible to view on your desktop, tablet or smartphone.
Rainbow Europe is designed to make the job of researchers, policy makers, media outlets, students and academics and other interested NGO’s more straightforward. It allows users to filter the map based on different themes, download reference materials for free and compare a particular country’s standing with the European average.
One of the major benefits of the web module is that it can be immediately updated to reflect the latest legislative & policy changes. ILGA-Europe constantly monitor the legal and policy situation for LGBTI people with the help of our member organisations, working with a team of national experts to validate all the relevant data. In addition to this, ILGA-Europe are grateful to our partners Transgender Europe, OII Europe, and ERA for their expertise and advice which ensures the module is as up-to-date as possible. 142.189.112.124 (talk) 22:20, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Pbritti if you would like to improve the way multiple references to the same source are implemented in the wiki, please do that edit rather than reverting the entire content. Repeatedly reverting to delete content maybe evidence of vandalism. What specifically do you have a problem with in the content. It is acurate, sourced, concise, nonbiased and to the point. Perfect for causal readers. I think 184.147.108.166 did a great job and many articles could be improved by these rapid summaries which promotes different reader styles. 142.189.112.124 (talk) 22:25, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)"You must support your deletion, it is not my burden to prove your justification wrong, you must support the reason for your action in reverting." No, you have it backwards. Again, per policy, the "The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content". What is disputed this "5 Key Takeaways" bit you keep adding to the lead. Your WP:WALLOFTEXTs outlining edits easily accessible from the history and that are attempting to address multiple points beside the WP:LAYOUT issues is not going to bring about any consensus. I've said my bit, these dispute resolution options will help you draw additional feedback.-- Ponyobons mots 22:32, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Pbritti you are continuing an edit war. I reverted the following addition by another user. "Same-sex marriage remains limited to heterosexual couples under the 1996 constitution"
Article 51 of the Constitution, adopted in 1996, specifically defines marriage as a voluntary union between a man and a woman.
Your repeated use of the revert feature when corrections have been properly made and the use of the abuse of the twinkle tag is direct evidence of graffiti.
I am losing confidence in Wikipedia. Our organization will immediately stop our annual donations. 142.189.112.124 (talk) 04:27, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)The onus is on you, despite what you claim above. Everything you wrote below here does not indicate why, specifically, the points you bulleted in the lead should be in the lead and summarized in a non-standard fashion. I reverted you once, others reverted you once or twice. Don't accuse anyone of vandalism again or you may receive a block; a warning will be added to your page. If you want an example of good leads that summarize correctly, see LGBT rights in the United States and LGBT rights in Uganda. Don't ping me again, please. ~ Pbritti (talk) 22:27, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The 5 key points thing was clearly inappropriate as it would be in any Wikipedia article. It may be fine for Rainbow Europe but it's not something we do here since this is intended to be an encyclopaedia article rather than a fact sheet or simple information article.. Nil Einne (talk) 12:07, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Rainbow Europe may well be an acceptable source and the information may well be correct (I have no reason to doubt it) but the format of 142.189.112.124’s edits is inappropriate.
@142.189.112.124 claims:

Regarding your comment about the use of bullet points being idiosyncratic, yes, wikipedia is currently trying to change the long verbose style used in the lead to a more summary style more consistent with bullet points and key takeaways. It is specifically intended objective to enhance readability of casual readers.

I have never heard that anybody is trying to start using bullet points and key takeaways in lead sections; that does not accord with MOS:LEAD. I think that wikipedia is currently trying to change the long verbose style is simply not true. The "key takeaways" style information you are discussing is already present in the infobox; that is the appropriate format for using information, as you can see in this article and other articles on LGBT rights in other territories.
Please desist from making this edit to the lead. If the information is missing from the article, update it there. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk; please {{ping}} me in replies) 19:21, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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