Talk:Seville

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 September 2018 and 6 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Meganly.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 09:01, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 1 April 2019 and 14 June 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Sograves, Gabbym9903.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 09:01, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Unreliable tourist blog source

The source claiming Seville is the warmest in continental Europe here [1] is an unreliable tourist blog source which needs to go. Weatherextremes (talk) 20:36, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

@Weatherextremes: Don't worry, I have deleted it already as I've actually inserted an official European Space Agency (ESA) source backing up the same claim. https://earth.esa.int/web/earth-watching/image-of-the-week/content/-/article/seville-spain/

The official website of the European Space Agency claims "Seville is the hottest major metropolitan area in Europe" as shown in the source. This is already an A-grade official source so I've removed the other source. --TechnicianGB (talk) 14:28, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

However this is a reference regarding the maximums and not the average annual T. So I am correcting it for accuracy Weatherextremes (talk) 15:21, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

@Weatherextremes: Please don't make further changes again if they don't have consensus, let's first clarify things here in the talk page. Thing is that, you've deleted official AEMET data regarding the annual average of 19.2ºC, can I know why exactly? The 19.2ºC average is an addition based on the official AEMET data, what is referenced is the statement regarding it's the warmest/hottest major city in Europe. If you see, they put a comma before saying anything about the summer average temperatures.

So it's actually saying "Seville is the hottest major metropolitan area in Europe" and then, they say "with summer average high temperatures of above 35 °C." which is an additional statement that doesn't break up the fact they've said before when it says "Seville is the hottest major city in Europe". They just put additional information about the summer temps. Also the 19.2ºC average comes directly from AEMET. Why did you delete that? --TechnicianGB (talk) 16:44, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

No it is not an additional statement. It is a clarification of the hottest designation. You need a source that clearly and verbatim verifies your claim that with a mean annual temperature X Seville is the warmest in CE. You can add the 19.2C reference in the Spain sentence I have added. What you are doing by keeping the wording like that is twisting the meaning of your own source. Weatherextremes (talk) 16:49, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Also this is a content dispute between you and me once again. If I count correctly so far in the climate article your have added two blog sources to back up your claim and now you are providing a source that nowhere does it say anything about the mean annual T. Weatherextremes (talk) 16:52, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

@Weatherextremes: First of all, the official AEMET numbers have to prevail. That's why it starts saying the official annual T from AEMET. Second, the phrase saying "the hottest major city in Europe" is directly shown in the ESA source, not specifically mentioning the annual T as that is inserted from the AEMET source. ESA also says it's the warmest, which is something you've had a problem with (you seem to be the only user in Wikipedia to have a problem with that statement) where have you read in the Wikipedia TOS that the source specifically needs to say both the statement and the temperature? The temperature comes from AEMET thus it's directly referenced from AEMET and the statement comes from ESA thus it's directly referenced by ESA. You have literally 0 reasons to delete anything this time as both are A-grade sources. Also, the previous source wasn't exactly a blog as you claim, but whatever. You just came from a 3-month block and you're following the same path again? --TechnicianGB (talk) 16:57, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

With the edit I just made now I make clear that the AEMET numbers are first but the meaning is not twisted as your wording is basically implying something that the ESA source does not say! You have been blocked if I remember correctly as well in the climate of Greece dispute. Remember we were both blocked after you initiated the report to admins.So check out my edit which is much more balanced IMHO. Weatherextremes (talk) 17:06, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

@Weatherextremes: It says exactly this: With an annual average of 19.2 °C (67 °F), the city of Seville is the warmest major metropolitan area in Europe and Spain.

So, the annual average T comes from AEMET and it's properly sourced by an AEMET source. The hottest statement comes from ESA and it's properly sourced by ESA: And there is an additional Spanish Newspaper that covers up the other thing. As you can see, there are 3 different things (split up by commas or points) and all of these 3 things have specifical reliable sources. Why are you deleting or making changes over this? I don't understand your point. --TechnicianGB (talk) 17:04, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Check my latest edit. Two different sentences need to be included in the article as the ESA source does not say anything about the mean annual T! You need a source that verbatim verifies your claim or else it is just twisting the facts of your own source. What don't you understand exactly? Weatherextremes (talk) 17:09, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

@Weatherextremes: from where did you took the statement that "you need a source that verbatim verifies your claim" what don't you understand that these are 3 things with 3 different sources, one for each?

I give you an hour to revert your last edit so you can show everyone that you are open to engage in the talk section to properly edit in Wikipedia and to seek a consensus instead of trying to impose again your own POV.

If you don't do it, you don't leave me another choice than reporting you again so an administrator can take actions to explain you things again. It seems you didn't have enough in the past and you do the same again when you got unblocked just 3 days ago? Prove you want to change or I won't have any other option than to report you. These are 3 different statements with one source for each, and Wikipedia:TOS doesn't say anything about what you are saying. --TechnicianGB (talk) 17:18, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

You are giving me an hour? I am sorry but this behavior is unacceptable, are you trying to bully me? Are you pretending that you do not understand that by keeping the sentence with a coma that you are twisting your own source resulting in synth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research#Synthesis_of_published_material. This is why you need a verbatim source. The ESA source does not say anything about the mean annual T! It mentions clearly the high maximums. That is why my proposed edit is a correct representation of your sources. You have tried the past 6 months adding 2 unreliable blog sources and now an irrelevant to the mean annual Ts source just to prove your thesis that Seville is the warmest city in continental Europe on average. Please find a source that clearly talks about mean annual temperatures and clearly stipulates that Seville is the warmest in Europe in this regard. You know very well from our discussions back in December that you can not find a reliable statement like this. Weatherextremes (talk) 17:32, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

@Weatherextremes: Here you have a source from the UIA Initiative (official European Union LIFE programme) source that specifically says "Sevilla, Spain, is the warmest city in continental Europe" You can find this statement under the "Executive Summary" paragraph: https://www.uia-initiative.eu/en/news/cartujaqanat-recovering-street-life-climate-changing-world-journal-2-how-sevilla-moving-needle at this point you can't reject this fact since this is not any blog but an official European Union site that says exactly what's written now in the page. Any further edits from this point would be just yourself contradicting an official European Union source thus making it disruptive. I know this can interfere with your personal POV and beliefs, but as you can see, even an EU source says the same. The annual temperature is separately referenced by the AEMET source, but if you have a problem with that, you can delete it, as the "Warmest city in Continental Europe" sentence is specifically verbatim verified and sourced. --TechnicianGB (talk) 18:02, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Ok that is much better. We can tentatively accept this source even though it is a vague statement without a reference in the actual means. So I can actually agree to this source even though we know from current stats there are warmer areas in Europe annually. Given that you have now provided this source I am fine with it. Weatherextremes (talk) 18:08, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Oh and now it's also properly referenced and stated exactly as the sources say. The 19.2ºC annual mark has been moved on a different paragraph so it perfectly respects and represents the content from the sources. --TechnicianGB (talk) 18:07, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Ok that is fair enough! Weatherextremes (talk) 18:08, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

References

Seville

26th most populous municipality 2600:1700:9FFE:20B0:454A:25D1:C0CD:6FC0 (talk) 18:11, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

1991-2020 climate normals

I am not sure why my edits were reverted. They come from a RS and this is how WP works. It does not matter if the source is from AEMET or not. It is from NOAA as communicated through the WMO. The data are updated climate normals and should remain as they provide readers a cleared and more updated idea of the climate of the city Weatherextremes (talk) 21:25, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Your edits were reverted because you're replacing the most reliable source on this topic for a less reliable one. Based on WP:RS you can always replace a source with a more reliable one. Not with a less reliable one which has clearly wrong data. Seville's sunshine hours didn't boost up with 300 hours and the summer high averages aren't lower, but the opposite. The AEMET OpenData (official for foreign agencies such as NOAA) for 1991-2020 has nothing to do with the data NOAA is providing, either with the official WMO data which you can check here: https://worldweather.wmo.int/en/city.html?cityId=1237 (they still provide the 1981-2010 averages, such as AEMET) so even if it's a reliable source as you call it, if it has clearly wrong data, that has to be wiped out. They claim the data is from WMO but it directly collides with the WMO website. It makes no sense. We don't know from where NOAA is taking that data, they aren't referencing anything. Clearly not the WMO (see website above) values. Pfarla (talk) 22:10, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Hey fellow wikieditors @Pfarla: and @Weatherextremes: what if we keep both? So many cities have 2 or more climate charts. And it doesn't bother anyone. You both have good points so what if we keep both? I'm mostly a wiki reader than an editor, and I would enjoy watching both! WikiEditor1890 (talk) 23:47, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Just for anyone interested, we have reached to a consensus in the talk page of Cordoba as the topic was exactly the same as on this page. So we will leave both sources and problem solved. Pfarla (talk) 01:07, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

We can keep both charts, but keep in mind that AEMET is the most reliable source for climate in Spain. They have climate data stored in AEMET OpenData which can be consulted through an API key. The new 1991-2020 normals from AEMET are different from NOAA, they don't have weather stations in Spain, which is very important.WMO have also the AEMET data normals for climate in Spain (1981-2010).

NOAA shows that Seville has an annual average temperature of 19.3 ºC, but according to the AEMET OpenData, in the period 1991-2020, there were only 7 years in which the average annual temperature was below 19.3 ºC and there were still 7 years in which the average annual temperature was above 20.0 ºC.

An AEMET worker has a blog in which he published 1991-2020 normals: https://climaenmapas.blogspot.com/p/climo19912020.html All the values are from AEMET OpenData (only with API key you can acess) and these are only temperatures and precipitation.

When AEMET publishes 1991-2020 normals, we will delete the NOAA data and upgrade the other 1981-2010 ones. Farell37 (talk) 04:15, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

The AEMET OpenData are not quality controlled. A note from AEMET also mentions that. The data that we have now and have been internationally communicated to the WMO through NOAA will be the ones that AEMET will probably publish on its website. Weatherextremes (talk) 23:51, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Even if they are not quality controlled, it does not necessarily mean that they are wrong, although there are chances that they will change. Also, in NOAA says that The WMO continues to receive updates and additions from Member countries. The 1991-2020 Normals will be updated to reflect additions and changes in the future. That means, it would be updated when AEMET officialy publishes the 1991-2020 normals. Each country's meteorological agency is the most reliable source of climate data for that country.

Some values from stations of Córdoba and Seville from 1981-2010 are also wrong on NOAA normals. Farell37 (talk) 03:28, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

This note pertains to countries that have not already provided to WMO the new climate normals. More notably from Europe this is Portugal and Greece. Weatherextremes (talk) 03:07, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

This applies both to countries that have not published and to possible new updates. The values ​​for the record average temperatures in the city of Seville (and Córdoba too) are wrong in some months and this makes a difference in the final averages. The same also applies to records for average maximum temperatures that are wrong in some months for both Seville and Córdoba, as well as some other Spanish cities. The records shown in NOAA normals are different from those shown in AEMET (on their own website, in extreme values)

If you compare, the highest average monthly temperatures shown on the AEMET website and those shown on NOAA, are different in some months when we talk about average highs and monthly averages. Farell37 (talk) 22:11, 8 December 2023 (UTC)